Hello and welcome to This Is Not What I Signed Up For, a survival guide podcast for the new or first time manager, teaching you how to swim so you don't sink and learning all the things that you need to learn when you get into a management role for the first time. So today I am joined by Lauren Sergy. Lauren, hello. Good to have you with us. Lauren is a speaker and communications expert. She's helped thousands become more effective leaders through communication. She's worked across Canada and the US with prestigious clients such as those from the big four, as well as teaching business communications at the University of Alberta and Concordia University with a few books in there as well. So welcome, Lauren. One of the things I want to do as an immediate sort of icebreaker and getting a feel is I'd like to know What is one of the worst pieces of advice you've ever received or the worst mistake you've made in terms of management or moving into the space? The worst piece of advice that I ever received is to look like you have everything in hand. And that bit of advice was given to me by a very well -meaning manager. It was something that she liked to tell everyone around her, especially the younger women that she saw as being up and coming managers. And it was basically to always look like you know what you're doing, to never admit that you look like you know what you're doing because that would portray weakness. And it works provided that you do know everything. And the minute that people figure out that you don't, and they will figure that out very quickly, what it then starts to appear as being is that the person is insecure and manipulative. That is very true. They cannot admit that they don't know what they're doing. So God forbid, this individual with kid gloves, be very wary of everything that they say and don't trust everything that they say because they're probably operating under the Dunning -Kruger effect. I didn't just, It was such an atrocious bit of advice. I did not work with her for very long. Yeah, unexpected consequences that could come from that would be quite something. Yeah. supremely confident about that bit of advice. It did not work out well for her. Well, great. Thank you for that. Let's hope we can distill some better advice in today's chat. today we're going to be speaking about speaking up the ladder. know, we've got we're moving into leadership and you kind of expect that, hey, I'm in leadership now. I'm going to be having to work with the people that are reporting into me. You often don't think of the fact that you're going to have to be managing upwards as well and looking after the teams above you, the leaders, the senior leaders, the executive. So we're going to talk about communicating with senior managers and executive managers today. So Lauren, what are some of the things that new managers struggle with in this space? There can be a pretty significant struggle I find in figuring out what it is they need to communicate up the ladder. How am I supposed to be talking to these very senior level people? And there's often this pressure and we put the pressure on ourselves to assume that we have to share everything, that we will show them our expertise through sheer volume of information and that what the senior leaders are doing with this information is taking it all in because they're brilliant and that's why they got into senior leadership position and then using everything to make core decisions. And yeah, that's not how human brains work. Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, the fact that you've got to this role and you've been promoted kind of means that people are aware that you're pretty good at this. You don't need that volume, perhaps. Yeah, and another assumption that often happens, I find, when people ascend into management positions is this idea that their stuff is so critically important that everyone else will be treating their important things with the same level of importance that they treat their own important things with. And that's not, that again, is not the case. because if everything had equal level importance, we would just be operating in this constant, constant state of overwhelm. So things that matter intensely to the mid -level manager, let's say, might not matter as intensely in terms of knowledge transfer to the senior vice president or the CEO above them. This stuff does matter. It matters intensely for that mid -level manager. They have to know it, they have to know it cold, they have to do it and make decisions with it. But to a very large degree, part of the reason that they're in that role is because the senior leadership and the executive are trusting them enough to be able to do those things, make those decisions, use that information in such a way that it doesn't need to be pushed forward. Sorry, pushed upward, I mean. Yeah. You know, that we, that what matters to us is important, but it's not necessarily important that everyone above us know about Yeah. So what would you say, you know, is the, how do you do that litmus test as to what someone above might need? What do you think are kind of those differences in expectations between the leaders and if you're presenting to them, things like that, where do you draw that line? Where do you get that What I find is a very useful way of figuring out how much needs to actually be pushed up versus what can be kept to myself is to figure out, you look at the organizational chart, this will sound very boring and clinical, but it kind of is. Pull out the org chart, look at the different positions of the people who you are communicating with up the ladder, and ask yourself what kinds of decisions are they making across the company, for the company, on a day -to -day basis? What do their daily actions look like? What does their daily information need to be? And you have to understand that the way they're using information is going to be different from the way that you're using information, namely that they have generally a much larger breadth of view, but not necessarily the same level of depth that you do. They are going to be more organizationally conceptual. They're going to be thinking of things from the 30 ,000 foot view. Whereas as a manager, your job is to know the things at the 10 ,000 foot view or the ground level so that that stuff can be acted upon. They need the 30 ,000 foot view. It's going to be broader, it's going to be less detailed, but the implications of their decision are going to be much larger. Again, they're going to be weighted across the company. So it's important that mid -level managers understand what their boss's jobs actually are and how their bosses think about their jobs. And realize that the COO, does the chief operating officer, does not use the same information in the same way as the chief financial officer or as the chief people officer or whatever. They're all looking at different 30 ,000 foot niches within the broader context of the company. So you need to tailor your information for the person that you're speaking with. Ask yourself, how are they using it? What's important to them to make that decision? And if it's not important to their decision -making process, don't bring it up unless they explicitly ask. Yeah, and out of curiosity with that, with getting to know this, and I think it's very valuable for folks to get to know those other roles in the business. mean, you've likely been in a individual contributor role for a long time where it's your role in getting everything done in a solo kind of sense or in a small team, perhaps. But then moving in and learning that broader thing, learning the teams around you and what they do. What would you say are some of the best ways to learn those different roles and those people around? Is it kind of going offline and doing research? Is it approaching these CFOs, these heads of HR, having a chat with them? Is it the water cooler? What's some of the best ways to getting to know those different roles? It's gonna be a big messy combination of everything. I am of course a fan of offline research of looking at these different roles kind of from an almost an academic point of view. What kind of things do they do during the day? If you can get your hands on their job descriptions from the company, that can be very valuable, very, very useful, but that's not the complete picture. A big thing that I recommend new managers do is sit on as many meetings with these people as possible. Not to speak, you're not going to speak, you're going to listen. And I like to pay attention to ideally one person at a time. As you can imagine, this is gonna take a while. This is something that you do over the course of months or even years. But you listen to how they talk, you listen to what kind of questions they ask, you pay attention to when they seem really interested or really concerned and what sort of stuff sticks in their craw. because that's the information that's important to them, and it's going to be impacting their decisions. And as you pay attention to one person over another, you'll start to figure out where their brains are going. And then realize that when you're speaking to them, their brain is already there. It's already going in that direction. So you don't want to pull them in your direction. You want to go to where they are and frame your information within their context. Often this is more about knowing what they don't need to know than what they do. People's gut reaction is to give them the kitchen sink, is to dump everything on their plate. The problem is they do not have the bandwidth because all of these senior level managers are dealing with so many disparate areas within the company, so many differing ideas that are involved in their decision -making process that they hit overwhelm extremely quickly. So part of the job as the mid -level manager or the earlier manager is to determine what they actually need to know from you and then edit out everything else. It's easier said than done, but crucially, it's going to be by paying attention to how they communicate with you and with others. Coffee, going for coffee with them is great. Asking questions like what's on your mind right now? What's really sticking out to you? Hey, I read about this thing. How do you think about this? What jumps out at you in that latest press release on our area of the industry? Little chit chats like that, if you can get them, are very, very, very valuable, because it gives you that insight. But I find more than anything else, it's listening carefully to what they say and observing how they behave in meetings and interactions. Yeah. And I think with going through all of this experience as well and having these conversations and that listening, you can, I'm sure, accelerate your rapport that you would have with them if you are speaking to those things that matter to them and giving them that information in a quick succession as to what they need. What's your view on kind what should be communicated in terms of a structure or something? We speak about getting to know the folks or know what their role encompasses. And maybe we even get that from SharePoint and an intranet. That's a start too. But in terms of that managing up, are there pointers for what should be in a presentation? Do you come with solutions for them? Do just come in with problems. What's a good approach if you're going to structure your communications? Is there a good approach or structure to the communication? everything revolves around the purpose of the communication. So that's the first thing that you have to find out. If you are being pulled into the meeting, what is the goal of the meeting? What are they trying to achieve? And on top of that, what are the objectives? What are the things that are going to indicate that will happen either in the meeting or as a result of the meeting that will mean that they've achieved that goal? So you'd be, you know what, Ross, you would not be surprised at how many people. are pulled into meetings or call meetings without having the faintest, foggiest clue of what they're trying to actually get out of it. And if you don't, it's infuriating. It is infuriating. It happens very often, partially because people feel that need to swat around ideas almost to have that cooler talk, but in a more formal environment. If you can pinpoint, this is what we're here to decide on. this is what we're here to figure out, this is how we know whether we've figured it out, then the conversation becomes much more focused almost immediately. Then you need to ask yourself, okay, so knowing that this is the goal of the meeting, what do I have that will contribute to the people in the room being able to meet that goal versus what is tangential? So what are the little bits of piece of information, not that I need, but that they need from me? for them to be able to move the needle towards that goal. And if you're speaking across departments, this can really require that you pull yourself out of your own head and put yourself into the other person's shoes, which is why it's so important that you know what their jobs are and how their jobs work and what impact their work has on the company. Because without that information, you can't put yourself into their shoes. Now. If you are not in the position of having called the meetings where you get to say, this is what we're trying to achieve, ask the person who called the meeting. Okay, what do you want to get out of this? What do you want us to have done by the end of the meeting? What do you want from me? And that question, what do you want from me? What do you want me to walk in being able to, being ready to tell you or being able to talk about might seem very forward. It is not. an overly forward or an impetuous question at all. What you are asking them is to give you precisely what it is they're hoping to get out of it. You're helping them target the information to their needs so that you don't flood them, so that you don't come in with the kitchen sink and you don't get off track. But you gotta have the guts to ask them. And that's where I find so many managers and even high level managers when they're speaking a level up to them. They clam up and think, I can't ask for this kind of clarification. I should just magically know. Walking in, ask for clarification. Yeah, ask for clarification. yeah, I've never been one for the ivory tower and kind of respecting that, I can't go knock on a door. You'll be amazed at how many people will answer the door if you knock on it or like I actually say, and maybe this day and age, it's a bit dated. but pick up the phone and speak to the people who organize the meeting and you can discover way more and make a way more streamlined meeting. great. yes, and in a way you're doing them a favor, especially I find the higher up the ladder you're communicating, the less time they've had to think about that specific goal, objective outcome of the meeting. They just haven't had the bandwidth to think. So when that challenge question comes up, okay, what's the goal? What's the objective? What are we getting out of this? What do you need from me? It gets that senior leader's brain clicking in the right direction and now they have to verbalize what they want. which in many ways can clarify their own thought process. And all you're asking for is, tell me what you want me to show up ready to give you. That's it. But it helps on so many levels and then you're not left guessing. Absolutely. I think there are so many things that can come from that as well. I've had it in times gone by where I've had that conversation and the meeting no longer needs to happen because in that actual working out of what's needed, it can be provided. And then suddenly this is a meeting that could have been an email and that is sorted out there and then. And that's a great way to go through things. And it's incredibly valuable again for the people who are above you in the ladder, the people that you're communicating up to. Generally speaking, they do not have a lot of available time. They're not calling meetings because they're sitting around twiddling their thumbs. And if you can give them back, well, ideally, if you can give them back some of that time by asking these clarifying questions, by getting them to enunciate what they need, it turns you into an effective communicator for them. and it can really increase their perception of your value as a competent, skilled manager. This manager makes my life easier. When I'm talking to them, we always know what we're supposed to be talking about and the conversations stay focused and on track. That increases your perceived value and your real value too, because now you've become more efficient for Indeed, Lauren, this is fantastic. I love everything you've said so far. you got any other little tidbits of advice as we start wrapping One of the biggest bits of advice that I have is to try to keep many of these conversations, again, especially the more senior the leader gets, to one or two topics at the most. Go in with a single item that you want to discuss. Discuss it with them and then be done with it and leave. And then go in with the next item a little bit later. Once again, what you're trying to do is manage the inclination for people at the very top to be really informationally overwhelmed and get your point across quickly. The more, if you are in the situation where you have a big chunk of time, I've got my two hour meeting with them, those need to be very carefully planned out. And I like to approach those almost like bullet points. And we're going to talk about one thing at a time, then take a quick break, go get a coffee, go stretch, go to the bathroom, whatever. Then we're talking about the next thing. Really quick break to check email. Then we're talking about the next thing so that you're always remaining focused on just one idea. The more ideas you try to jam in, the more people get lost. and please take notes and write those down and follow up on them that you actually got the right understanding. Yes! Lauren, thank you so much. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about what you're working on currently as we wrap As we wrap up right now, we're entering in workshop season. People are booking like crazy right now. So at the moment, it's a lot of client work that I'm focused on. I am also working on the skeleton of an upcoming book, which is Communication Skills for Women in Leadership, but that's not gonna be out for another year or two, so don't get too excited there. Well, I wish you good luck with that. know what the writing process is like, but it's so rewarding. Lauren details of everything Lauren's up to is also going to be in the podcast description. So please jump in there, take a look at everything she's doing. Lauren, thank you so much for joining us today. This has been great. Love your ideas. And I'm sure everyone can take quite a bit from this and wishing everyone fantastic communications and managing upwards.