Hello and welcome to the Halloween edition of This Is Not What I Signed Up For. Preventing you from sinking by teaching you how to swim. Welcome. Well, let's get up to a little bit of light though here in the room for those watching on video. Today, I am going to be speaking to Mark Lefebvre, also known as Mark Leslie. And we're going to be touching on the terror of management because management can be a little terrifying sometimes, but it's also really rewarding. Mark is an author, he's a speaker, he's a book industry representative and a self-professed book nerd. He's got over 30 years in the industry. He's managed bookstores. He's managed teams for corporate offices, and he bought the entire team for Kobo Writing Life for self -publishing. Mark, welcome. Great to have you on here. Great to be on and happy Halloween, Ross. My favorite time of the year, of course. For those who can't see us on video and if you hop onto YouTube, you'll be able to see us. We're a little dressed up for the occasion. There's a lot of skulls and things flying around and top hats and so on. So give it a look on YouTube. Mark, very excited to have you here. The first thing I always do is a bit of an icebreaker. What is the worst piece of advice you've ever received in terms of management? I, this is going to sound counter counterproductive, but I think that some of the worst advice I ever received was sit on your hands. And I know as a manager, the idea is that you manage the team. you don't do, but I've had a lot of difficulty respecting a manager who doesn't understand what it is that I do. I want the person who's in charge to at least be able to do the tasks I do. and then understand it intricately so that the decisions they're making are not based on 50 ,000 feet. they do have to, manager does have to look at the top level, but I think the challenge is understanding what the people who work for you are actually doing. Okay. Maybe you don't have to do every single thing, right? So in particular developers who specialize in certain software or whatever, you don't have to understand what it is, but at least understand. enough about what they do that when you're making decisions, you're making decisions based not on some blue sky vision, but on the reality of their world. And I think that helps. So it's a weird bit of advice. And I have trouble sitting on my hands because I like getting my hands dirty. I like interacting. I like being there with the staff, I think my partner, Liz, who is a principal, is not a principal who sits in her office and kind of dictates from the throne or anything like that. She's in there. She's in the classroom. She's Working with the kids, she knows the names. She actually knows the names of every single kid in the school, even when there were teachers who don't even know every name of the kid in their classroom. But I think that respect for your workers is overrides that sit on your hands for me anyway. absolutely, it's something that I brought up in my book as well about like the ivory tower. And it's great to be sitting in the management team or the management circle or something like that. But if you're not involved in your team, you're going to be out of the loop as far as culture is concerned. You're not going to be informed on things. You're not going to know what's happening. It makes such a disconnect. So absolutely with you on that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Mark, onto our topic today, the terror of being a manager. Tell me, why can management be terrifying? Here's the thing that terrifies me most about management. It's it sounds like I'm trying to shirk responsibility. It's the responsibility. It's not the responsibility of being your something goes that goes wrong. You're in charge. It's not that at all. It's the responsibility of the care for other people. As a manager, I believe that my job is to make sure that the people who are working on my team as a part of my team, not for me, but as a part of the team that I oversee, that I'm responsible for their care. I'm responsible for their well -being. I'm responsible for ensuring they have all the tools and resources that they need to do their job properly. And that's not just work related stuff. For me, it's really important to recognize the humanity of the people who work for you. there are going to be things that are going on outside of work that may impact their work and being there for them in many ways. I think is so critical. So that's terrifying to know that you're responsible for another human. It's kind of like, you know, being a parent, right? You're responsible for the well -being of the young person that you're raising into the world. And you're hoping to give them enough tools and resources that they can stand on their own. But you're there to catch them if they fall. And that's a responsibility. I do not take that lightly. Hmm. From our chats previously, I got that from you and that was so nice. We need to record this. This is great. Mark, so I mean, the role of management, think a lot of people think of management as, I'm coming in. Yes, I'm going to have some great KPIs to deliver and things like that. You speak about empathy and things and looking after your team. Can you tell me a bit more about how you fulfill that role in looking after your team? How do you get that empathy going in different things? Well, I think it often starts with when you're hiring, when you have people on your team, you ideally you have they're there because they are the best at what they do. You recognize that they have all of the skills. But there's also there's that personal, there's that communication aspect of the team is that, yes, we have a lot of work to do. Yes, we need to work hard. But I think we need to take the time to communicate with one another about. the job itself or even about those extra things. I'm very not introverted. I call myself an omnivert. Small talk does not thrill me. know, Monday morning, how was your weekend? Like that sort of stuff is just so benign and like talking about the weather or the sports or anything like that. I mean, for me, I really want to get into the depth of a conversation. So So that may be talking about the latest movie. OK, yeah, the latest movie, know, Deadpool versus Wolverine. But let's talk about the interaction of the characters in the interplay and how it relates to a classic movie like Planes, Trains and Automobiles and the two misfits who shouldn't be together. And yet, right, right. So, I mean, I want to get into those details. And I think if you actually spend some time, you know, you know the skills of the people on your team. I think it's important to understand who the person is behind. That now I'm not saying to be snoopy and privacy of employees is paramount. However, understanding the human and so there may be things that they don't want to talk about that are personal, that are private, but there may be things that they're very passionate about and understanding and understand the things they like, the things they really enjoy. I mean, that can make a huge difference just for. For example, if you know, bringing, let's say you bring coffee into the team in the morning or something, and you know that somebody really likes a particular flavor boost added to their coffee, you know, just doing that without, you know, I think some of the little things that you do, but it all starts with just being able to listen and being willing to spend the time to listen. I learned this in, one of the teams I was a part of. I'm not a developer. I'm not a software guy. I'm not a high tech guy, but a team that worked for my team. doing all the hard end work, did agile development and they did the, you know, one of the things I love most about that is the one minute standup meeting where everybody just shares a little bit of something like here's, here's what I did yesterday. Here's what I'm doing today. Bam. Nice and quick and easy. Bam to the punch. And that really helps you understand what's going on at a high level without feeling like, again, I'm not a fan of micromanagement, but I am a fan of Yeah, those standups, it's something we do as well in the team that I'm in currently, like with our consulting and the space we're in. We're a small high performance team. But we also do these standups on a Monday where it literally is that what are you working on this week? are you not? It gives such a great indication of the workload someone's going to be under of what they're busy with, what's concerning them, what's what you're going to have to get involved in that you can plan your time. It's a very valuable exercise and just keeps you on the same page. When we don't have those because it's been a holiday or something like that, you can tangibly feel it in the team that you haven't met for that day. It's so important. Yeah, think that you feel the disconnect, right? You're not sure, but you're just kind of like, well, there's something there. And it's not a major thing, but it can have a powerful impact. I like it's an uneasiness that I feel when I have that. It's like, I'm not in the know of what's happening. It's a bit unsure. And yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because again, it's a well, it's a well -oiled machine and everyone's got their roles that they play and everyone contributes in a different way to the team. Again, I'm going to go, I'm going to go my partner, Liz, because I think she's one of the best leaders I've ever met in my life. And yes, of course I'm biased, but she doesn't call herself, she, every single person at her school is a part of the learning team. It's not this hierarchy. She gets, she got rid of the, you know, reserved parking for principal or vice principal. And he's like, no, We all park in the same wherever it doesn't matter. We're all part of the same learning team, whether whether you're the custodian who who's come in part time only on the weekends, you're part of the learning team because every single every single person in that building contributes to the kids or the kids. That's why they're there. And even parents, they're they're part of the learning team, right, because they support the child. They get the child to school. You know, all the things. Anyways, I take inspiration from that when I think about my team and the people that work with me. It's not I'm your boss. It's we are part of the same team and we all have a different function. My function is a little bit different because I have to maybe I negotiate for you on behalf of things that you may need from other teams, etc. But I mean, you can't take that too seriously. Yeah, one of our one of my previous guests actually mentioned like your team as much as perhaps there's the phrase family thrown around, but there's it's a community that you're in in that team. And it's got a culture and everything within it. So, Mark, how do you get the right people in that team? You spoke about like hiring, but there let's dive into that a little bit. Part of it, part of it is, mean, a good part of it is their skill and ability. But one of the main things I look for is mindset. And even if the person's skill and ability may not be as good, if they have the mindset to be able to learn, to be able to listen, to be able to grow, and also if they have the right attitude, I think part of that is also looking at how will How will their skills benefit the team? But how will they their person who they are? How will that interaction work within the team? And I mean, in some cases, I'm always looking for I'm always looking for that person who is. Where they're going to grow to, not just bringing them into the team, but they are here, they're going to do this role. But what's their potential for moving on and upwards? Maybe even outside of my team to another team where, and I've done that before knowing, I'll probably have them for a year. They're, they're so good. They're going to, someone's going to snatch them up for another team within this organization. But what I've done is I've brought in a really great resource and I've been so proud of the hires over the year, over the years when I can say, my God, now you're in charge of this other team and you've got like, or you've, taking on a completely new role because you're so amazing. And I'm so proud of the fact that I was the one who brought you in. I take great pride in the success of the people that I can bring on board. Yeah, I must say one of the best teams that I can remember in my management career a few years back was one of these teams where it was a special situation in that we were hiring for a kind of role that you couldn't study for. And it was in software, but it was in audit, but it was in accounting. And do we get software developers? Do we get accountants? Do we get auditors? And the answer eventually was like all three. But we had to skill everyone up in that. the hiring was for aptitude and attitude and coming in. And the results were spectacular. And that team now to this day, like watching every member of that team a decade or more later going into director roles and things like that is fantastic. So I feel that. feel that. So Mark, how do you bring the people up in that space? I mean, I'm often in just in one of the last teams that I met, like larger teams that I managed. I remember one particular interview where in the interview, I recognized this person could do my job and I hired them specifically because I knew I wanted them to replace me. And as they as I brought them on to the team, I also brought them into some of the decision making that I was doing to to sort of test out whether or not that was something that they would be interested in, be good at as well. knew they were qualified for it, is it something, you know, because again, you can be qualified to do something, but not necessarily manage people or whatever. And so I slowly just sort of gave them the opportunity, right? Given the autonomy and shared. And it's not that I would pick a certain person and only share it with them. I'd be willing to share with anyone on the team who's interested in understanding, hey, I just want to understand why you made this decision. mean, would transparency, think is, is paramount with your team in terms of just helping them, helping share with them why you maybe made decisions that maybe seemed, you know, from someone else's point of view was that I wouldn't, I wouldn't have done that. then, and then you can say, well, what would you have done in that situation and, and, and learn from them as well? The other thing I know is. There's not a single person there that you can't learn something from on that team because of their experience, their skills. But I think but I think purposely doing your best to work yourself out of a position. And I know it sounds wrong. mean, the last position I was at when I was at when I was at Kobo, the last position I was at, I specifically had hired someone because I knew she was she was way better than me. She was way better than me. She would be a way better manager. She was an amazing. amazing person, her experience, her knowledge, her aptitude, everything was phenomenal and worked with her fully knowing I did not want to move up in the company. I was happy with this incredibly powerful team I had built. had a manager that I knew could move up to that director position. And then once we both felt that that she was ready for that, it was kind of like it was my time to take my leave because I didn't I wanted I was making more money as a writer and I wanted to do independent consulting. And so I you know, love still love the company, still love the team. But I wanted to leave with the team in the best possible hands. And that was a case. it was then it was about two and a half years of nurturing and caring and communicating and working collaboratively that helped, I think, make made the transition so much easier because it was like everyone else looked at it and saw, of course, this is the natural person. I've been on board of directors, for example, where where when the president left and we were all like shocked, like, no, you built this thing. But then the president said, yeah, but the person who is going to take over the role and everyone on the board went, naturally. We just felt, of course, this is the person because I think it's not just that they have the skill, they have the ability, they have the attitude and you recognize it. I think it's important that The rest of the team recognizes it too, because they see it day in and day out. And I think that loops around to what you were saying around that being with your team, getting involved, that transparency. All of this, I think, ties into so well bringing together that team and maybe sorting out a bit of that terror of management. Yeah, it's not scary because you're not in it on you're not in it alone. You're all working. I mean, you're all managing. Everyone's managing. And again, I love when people manage their own. Because like, you know how to do this. I'm not going to tell you how to do it. I just need you to know what needs to get done or what the end goal is. I hired you because you're the best person to figure this out. And if you need help, I'm here for you. But I'm not going to be, you know, looking over your shoulder. succinct thing to say as someone walks in on the first day. That's wonderful. Mark, we're coming up on time. I could carry on chatting about this and working with teams like this for ages. I'm like already I've got all the people in mind from my previous teams at the moment and I want to tell stories and all that. I think. I want to showcase some of the stuff you're working on. You mentioned writing and all of that. So give our listeners a little bit of what you're working on, either from a business sense or a writing sense, whichever side you want to go from. So I'm just releasing October 2024, the 20th anniversary of a horror collection, One Hand Screaming. was the very first. It's a fully expanded version of the very first book I ever published. There's the terror, there's the horror. It's completely fiction. But another new book that has been released or will have been released by the time this gets out there is A Book in Hand. And it's one of my books for writers that remind authors of the value of of getting their book into a customer's hand in the physical world, because in a lot of the stuff I do with authors, it's about digital and ebooks and how to how to game the algorithms and the systems. But I bring it right back down to communication and networking and connecting with other people and those real real real life events, as you know, as a speaker, back of room sales, but also as a fiction author, getting in front of people and actually connecting with people. About your books because that again, you know whether you're managing or whether you're a writer It's really about the connections the human connections between people Yeah, wonderful. And I mean, can vouch for your skills in this space as well, because back in 2018, I think, 2017, when I was working on my book, we connected and discussed a lot of it. I think a lot of the direction I got was from you, and that was wonderful. And I think of you very, very fondly for that. So to the listeners, if you want to find out more, go check out the show notes. Mark's details will be there. Mark, thank you so much for joining us. as this has been wonderful hearing about your approach to this and the terror of management that's not necessarily that terrifying. Thank you so much for coming on board. Thank you, Ross. It's great to chat with you. Awesome. And thank you very much to our listeners. if you want to hear more like this, please subscribe. We're on your favorite podcast services and we'll see you soon. Everyone keep swimming.