Hi everyone, welcome to This Is Not What I Signed Up For, the podcast for first time managers teaching you how to swim so you don't sink in the new role that you're in. Today, I am very, very happy to have Vava Kolinski with me. And now some of you may know that while I'm a manager, I'm also in the privacy industry. And Vava is a friend of mine from that industry. He's the director of access and privacy for LCBO. And he's one of those people You know that just kind of stand out as a great person and the way he talks about his teams is Consistently like really amazing and warm And having had many teams related discussions with him I really wanted to have him on the podcast for all of your benefits as well because I really love the conversations that I have there So Vava welcome. Welcome to the podcast Thank you, Ross. And I echo that as well. Our conversations always touch on what I would say are the soft skills. We rarely actually touch on the technical aspects of our work. Although that's fun, think the people leadership side, when you reach a certain level, is far more interesting and challenging. Yeah, and I think rewarding from it. Yeah, great. So Vava, I start my podcast every single time with a question to my guests. So what upfront out of the gates, what's the worst piece of advice or instruction or something you've ever received as a manager? Yeah, this is a tough one for me, as you know, Ross, because I was really lucky as the first time manager in having a fantastic director who allowed me to avoid the pitfalls that I think we will touch on in the course of our discussion. And I was able to avoid, I think, some of the mistakes that we are all subject to as new managers, the things that will blindside you that you don't see coming. I was prepared for it. My director basically said right out of the gate and I'll touch on how I became manager, because I think that might be relevant to your audience as well. She empowered me right away to make decisions. She said to me, the only thing I expect of you is to make decisions. The only thing I will fault you for is not making decisions. You are now a decision maker. So do the best you can and I've got your back. And that made me feel very comfortable that I wasn't always thinking, what would she do? Or what is right for me to do in this circumstance? based on what my director might want me to do. It was more about what is the right thing to do based on the information I have at the present time. It might prove to be incorrect later, but right now this is the best decision and I need to make it in order for us to proceed. And so I avoided that pitfall and I think for a first time manager, if you don't get that advice from your supervisor or whatnot, keep that in the back of your mind. You are now a decision maker. Absolutely. having that support out the gates is, that's fantastic. Yeah, absolutely. And so, yes, I've made lots of mistakes, but they weren't born of advice because of that autonomy and empowerment I received from my director out of the gate. And I'll touch on this very quickly as well. I became a manager sort of out of the blue, and I don't think that's a unique experience. was just, I'd say, a mid-level contributor at a level that doesn't get identified for management. you'd have to be probably one or two levels up. And this is in the public service specifically, when you're in these bands or levels, until you reach a certain one, you're typically just not in line to become a manager. So you try to go through your career path. And when you reach a certain level, there may be succession planning. In my case, there was no succession planning, but my manager left very abruptly and I was tapped on the shoulder. So it came out of the blue and that made it challenging as well because I was suddenly the manager of a team of people I'd worked with for at that point nine years. I feel you there. That was one of my first spaces into management as well, promoted like sort of above the peers that I've been with for a couple of years. It was very tough. That's a tough situation. Yeah, having read your book Ross, and I really enjoyed it by the way, read it cover to cover. I took some notes, which of course I left over in the other side of the house. But, but yes, a lot of you, the stories that you shared, especially from your personal experience really resonated with me. great. I'm happy to hear that. That's the idea behind it. So for our guests listening, some of you may have kind of ascertained a bit of our topic for the day. So we're going to be talking about pitfalls for a new manager. those things where you can look at them and go like, it's a trap. That's what we're going to be kind of looking at. So Vava and I've had a couple of discussions around this and we've come up with a couple of the pitfalls that we want to bring up for you. So I think the first one, and you hinted on it in what you were saying there, acting the way you think a manager should act. So tell me a bit about that. How does this play out? Why do people do that? Let's hear your thoughts there. I think it's a survival technique. In any profession you observe others around you. and you try to fit in, I think we all try to do this, but that comes at the cost of bringing your authentic self to the job. And when you try to act like something other than what you are, first of all, you probably will eventually be very unhappy. If you're one way at home and another way at work, of course there's differences there. I dress differently at home, as you can probably see on the video, than I would when I go to the office. But those are just superficial things. I mean, being yourself in the circumstances that now you're presented with as a people leader to me was very important. And in fact, when I got tapped on the shoulder and I spoke to that director who had just arrived at the organization to she had been there two weeks. And yeah, exactly. So was a lot of changes and change brings a lot of anxiety to everyone. And certainly in that office, there was a lot of anxiety about who the next person was going to be. And so I talked to my director and I said, will I be able to continue to be myself in the office? Essentially having worked with this group of people for nine years straight, they know me as I am. And I was able in my position to just do a good job and be myself. And she said, no, you should absolutely not change who you are because that will lead to problems, not just mental health and just being happy in the role, but it'll make you less able to actually do the job of manager. But to your original question, we do sometimes try and pretend and sometimes that's not a bad strategy. Pretend that you are being successful without having everything in place because we do sometimes face situations where our confidence might be a little bit on the lower end and do have to act right. But do so from an authentic place. Try to do the right thing. and be yourself. It's really important. And the other reason I say that this is really important to pitfall is if you don't bring your authentic self to work, your team will feed off of that. And they will start to perhaps mimic or mirror how you act in the office and perhaps would start to feel that they can't bring their authentic selves to the workplace. And now you have a potential situation where your team is unhappy and barriers to communication could arise and whatnot. So you're always leading even when you're not speaking. You're demonstrating to your team and others in their organization how to act, how to be, how to be professional but authentic as well. I think that's really important. And if you don't do that, I think there's a lot of pitfalls. I've touched on a few of them that can arise. Yeah, it's a very, that's such an important point that, that you made as well there, just that it can rub off on the team and the team can pick up on that. It's, it's not that you're always being watched, but you should always be on and be aware of that kind of thing and what people may take from it. that's so valid. I hadn't thought we would go that route and that I I'm now pondering that in the different spaces where I've had that before as well, but. Yeah. with you being yourself is first and foremost how you're going to get people to come with you, I think on this. Yeah, and it allows you to be a good leader in the sense that if you do foster that culture and that environment, you are then able to be more tuned to the cues when people are struggling, whether in the workplace or in their personal lives and perhaps be able to support them in a way or catch things early enough where that support is actually effective before things get out of hand a little bit. because people are able to feel comfortable being themselves and maybe sharing with you their struggles or whatnot at a level that is helpful. Really important as well. And going backwards as well as a leader, being open and vulnerable and honest about what you might be going through. I think it's really important to do that in a professional way without, and this is the key point to me as well, as a leader, you can't raise the temperature. You are the steady force. in a time crisis, you really have to be the steady hand as others might be, you know, prone to anxiety or concern. You're the person who has the responsibility to keep things on a level keel, even if you are experiencing the same anxiety and stress. And if you can do that authentically, it's very, very effective. Yeah, wonderful. So going into our next pitfall a little bit there, and going back to what you were saying earlier as well, is the pitfall of delays in making decisions. And I have been there with this one when I came into management. And it wasn't even when I was at the start of my management career. This was. already well into it, I've come up against this little pitfall. But how do you balance the information gathering and making that informed decision? Because that's often where the delay is. And I know that I have a touch of perfectionist in me and I want to make the most correct decision I can possibly ever make. And I can stumble on waiting far too long gathering information. I think anybody who cares about doing a good job is prone to this. Waiting for everything to be 100 % confident that the decision is the correct one. There's a saying, I don't know who to quote here, but perfection being the enemy of the good. There are instances where a decision does need to be perfect, but they're mercifully rare. Most things simply don't have that much of an impact. Certainly in the type of work we do, we have time. We are not operating on someone on an operating room table. We are not managing a true emergency where people's lives are on the line. And I always use that analogy to help people understand, yes, we do important work, but we have the grace to take time to do it correctly. Not everything has to be done right away and perfectly. And that also empowers the team to make decisions without the fear of if it's not the perfect decision, that I'm going to get in trouble, you know? I'm very much in favor of the view, like by all means, make a mistake. We will figure it out once we've made it and resolve it. that fear of making mistakes, mean, that's a whole podcast episode on its own. encouraging that, fail, fail fast, get up, go again, and we'll all be okay. And I think it comes back to being that. authentically you again and supporting your team for that. So yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I just want to touch on something about the potential consequences of delaying. In our work, there are myriad of consequences. But if you think about the consequences from the impact on the other individual who may be waiting or could be impacted by the delay in the decision, whether that's an internal colleague who has to then use that decision to further their goals or perhaps a client. or in my case, a customer or a requester, it could lead to misunderstandings. It could erode relationships to a point that trust becomes an issue. Nobody, I think, is benefited from waiting and sitting on something. It sends a message. By the same token, if you train people by your responsiveness, What I mean is I have seen people be very, very quick to respond to everything. And in a moment where they happen to not respond, it suddenly sends a message that something's wrong or they're mad at me because they're suddenly not following now a set pattern. So being aware of the impact your work has on others, both in every sense, but also in the decisions that you're expected to make as a manager is really important. Make the decision, but also keep in mind when you make the decision. Also send a message. Yeah, interesting. You spoke about clients there. I mean, we work in the privacy and data space. When you have an incident, there is an aspect of time of the essence. earlier on in my career, there was a situation around a data breach or potential data breach. Finally, at least it turned out not to be one. But with this, there was tremendous focus put on evidence gathering and did we actually have an incident to the point that it wasn't actually communicated to the client that it may have affected. And eventually it kind of, the call was made, okay, we've got to tell them. And the reaction was not what we thought of, thanks for taking so much time to do the investigation. The reaction was, how did it take you this long to let us know we're getting our lawyers involved? What are you hiding? And it was a bit of a show, shall we say, for a few months. And eventually it came up with evidence that there was no breach at the end of the day, but the damage had been done from waiting for letting people know, because that trust was eroded. The client walked away. We lost the deal. It fell apart spectacularly from that delay in decisions from all sides. no, I totally empathize with you, it resonates. And it is about trying to put yourself in the shoes of those who are impacted, not just to the organization, or potentially the client for whom you're working, but protect the people who are impacted, the affected individuals, all those perspectives are valid. And sometimes not making a decision is the right decision, but at least communicate. And I've done on numerous occasions where I've told my team or somebody who's waiting for me very directly, I know you're waiting for me to make a decision. I am not comfortable making it yet because I don't have all the facts and I don't want to make a bad decision to your work. It may have an impact that neither of us want. So let's work together to manage the timelines. I will gather the information as fast as I can in order to provide you with the decision that allows you to move forward. But that in and of itself is a decision. As long as you're making it, you know, consciously that you're able to yet make a decision. And then again, it's relationship management. It's communicating with those that you know will be impacted. Yeah. it's so valid even with this incident that I was speaking about, the knock-on effects of losing the client affected the team. It affected the entire department. There's a cascade effect that can come from this, which not to scare anyone, but I mean, this is the kind of effects that can happen from decisions. So I think this all leads into the next pitfall we spoke about, and that's don't overthink things. What are your thoughts on Don't Overthink Things from what you've said so far now? It's so funny because as a person who is charged with being a leader but also has empathy, so being empathetic is really important but it can paralyze you to a point when, and I am an over thinker, I've managed it in the course of perhaps age and wisdom a little bit better, but when you constantly allow yourself to think about all the scenarios that your actions or decisions have in terms of the impact on others, you are potentially falling into a trap of overthinking and not making the right decisions because you're hesitating or second guessing yourself constantly after making the decision. you know, it can spiral. It can lead to what I suffer from, which is I'm an insomniac. And when I overthink things, I'm never getting back to sleep. So you have to give yourself a break is what I'm saying. Make sure that decisions you make Are you are confident in the time that you make them based on the information and let it go. And that's my technique is when I get into that spiral of I'm overthinking it, I say, no, no, no, I remember having that conversation with myself. This is the right thing to do right now. And let that be the foundation for your own mental health. You know, so, so yes, I think the impact of overthinking is on the people leader themselves as well. going back to one of the things we spoke about earlier, That will be communicated in one way or another to the rest of the team. And if there's any overthinkers on your team, they will then think that that's the right approach to their work. And that will delay their ability to make decisions or send you what you are expecting of them on time. Or, you know, they might be afraid of what you will think about the product that they're producing for you. And they will edit. right up to the point that they send it to you and afterwards, one of the, I think, symptoms of this that I try to tune into is if you send me something and then an hour later say, no, no, no, I've just updated it. Check this one out. Ignore that other thing I sent you. It's like, no, no, no, just stop. You've passed it over to me for review. Let me do my thing. We'll work together for the product. And I think that's the other message I would say to any new managers. You are in a partnership for that person's success, you're not their boss in that scenario. You are a partner to produce something that reflects well on them and yourself, but you're not there to performance manage them. That's not the time to be their boss. That's the time to be their partner. Working together in a constructive way, making them feel safe, as you said before, in making mistakes. We all make mistakes. It's learning from mistakes that's the key. If you make a mistake and don't learn from it, Now we might have to go into boss mode. Yeah. I think this is a good time to segue into the last footfall I wanted to discuss with you. And maybe boss mode, maybe not boss mode. I think it applies anytime. But being clear and direct. So I think you and I had briefly discussed this before. You need to get those instructions out and set people's expectations of what you're looking for and things like that. What are your thoughts around being clear and direct? How does it play out in your daily life? Yeah, so some things are very easy to be clear and direct about, such as punctuality, let's say. You've been arriving late to meetings. How can I help you be on time? What kind of things can I do to support you so that this doesn't continue to happen because it's just unprofessional? Easy, you can be very clear and direct about something that has a very easy metric assigned to it. One little example. There are many, many ways to, you know, be direct, but on the soft side, things that you're not clear about. So in our work, especially in privacy, especially if you work in the policy development phase, or space, the outcome isn't clear. We'll know when we get there once we get there. And so my approach to it is that partnership side. I know if I assign you a task and you're working for a blank page, just know that's the hardest part of the process. So don't try to make it perfect. We will work together. The hardest part you'll go through and then we'll get it together after that first draft towards something that we are both comfortable with, but we don't know what it is. And in that kind of a work environment, that's as much clear direction as I can offer sometimes. perhaps supported by who the audience is. Who are you writing this policy for? Who are you writing this training for, et cetera? Let's at least try to think about it from that perspective and that helps people to focus the work, but it's still kind of mushy direction, right? But I think it is still clear and direct, though. Yes, yeah, exactly. You're telling someone, I expect this of you, even though we don't know what the outcome is. And even saying that gives them some agency to say, okay, I don't have to try to get into his brain to figure out what the outcome is, because he doesn't know. We're working there together. If I know what the outcome is supposed to be, I will be able to very easily communicate that to you. But in most cases in our work, that's not always possible. So yeah, just being honest with people about the fact that you don't know everything. When you ask them to help you get somewhere, it's not always possible to tell them where that is until we get And that shouldn't necessarily be the case for you as the manager. Your team is there to do the things and you should let them do the things. that's you know what? I love that because I actually find if you're the expert, it could be a detriment to your ability to lead. Surround yourself with experts, build the foundation for them to succeed and tell you what needs to be done, help you get there. And so going back to the original thing that we talked about becoming a new manager, I was, I would say a subject matter expert on the privacy side, but now I became a manager. of both the Privacy Office as well as the Access to Information Office at this government ministry. And I did not have expertise on FOI. And that gave me a lot of agency to ask questions, to basically wave the Amanubi flag and let people explain to me in a way that allowed them to demonstrate that they were subject matter experts. And the previous management, I would say, had more expertise in FOI. and staff weren't empowered to bring the best advice to the decision maker. When I came in, it's like, well, you tell me what we should do in this case, but also be prepared to explain the why. Because then I can better understand if that's the right thing to do. And then I can put my signature on that letter. It's my name that goes on the decision, not yours. So I need to be comfortable that they were making the right decision. So convince me. as a subject matter expert. And that allowed me to really build rapport very quickly as a former colleague, because I didn't come in and act like I knew everything. I think that is a pitfall of managers trying to act in a way that they think a manager should, meaning I'm the expert now, I'm telling you what we should do. That's not always the best approach for a manager. As you said, the experts are those who actually do the work. Yeah, absolutely. Baba, this has been great. As always, I could chat to you about this until this evening sometime. But in conclusion, what is something that's interesting you at the moment, something that you're doing busy with? What's floating your boat right now? Well, right now, as you know, I'm recruiting to fill a vacant position in my office. And I think that's such an important part of a manager's job is to build a team that works together, that helps people to begin their careers. And in this case, I'm trying to foster a position that allows someone to enter the field and grow and hopefully be wildly successful for as long as they want to be. whether it's here or somewhere else because we are as managers not actually tasked with keeping people. We're tasked with with growing people I think. Recruitment is a heavy lift. It's a lot of work if you do it right but I take it very seriously. So that is also very energizing to me going through that process. So right now I'm kind of near the end stages of a recruitment for a position. I'm very excited to hopefully land a great candidate. That's what I think is a very important thing in my current day-to-day activities that keeps me energized and interested. On a professional improvement front, I'm studying for the CIPM exam. So I'll be taking it on March 11th. Yeah, I know, I've heard it's not easy. I have two certifications from the International Association of Privacy Professionals. Both of those exams were tough. And I think it's getting even tougher now that they're ISO certified. So yeah, I'm trying to develop my skills in the privacy management and privacy program space so I can continue to evolve the program at my organization and do the right thing, not just for the organization, but for the individuals who are affected by the fact that we are stewards of their personal information, which very seriously. You know, the one thing I want to touch on as well, I don't know if you've heard this in your privacy work, But the often overused line, especially when breaches are reported publicly, we take your privacy. It's the worst thing. It's like you've just. Yeah. So going back to my comment about authenticity, don't say something with authority, certainly that you don't believe or can't back up. You will erode trust like you wouldn't believe. If you've compromised someone's privacy and then you tell them you take it seriously, they will never trust you again. So the day to day, if you're working with people as a new manager, be confident, be decisive, but be honest. And that might be, I don't know. Right. Yeah. absolutely agree. Vava, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for this discussion for our listeners. More about Vava will be in the show notes of the podcast. So you can check that out there. Till then everyone, thank you so much for listening. Keep swimming. We'll see you next time. Vava, till next time. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you, Russ. I really appreciate being invited on your podcast. I've enjoyed your book and your podcast episodes. And I'm on LinkedIn. So if anybody wants to search me, I'm the only Vava that I know, certainly in Canada, but probably the entire world, easily found. As much as Privacy Guy, my professional profile is easily accessible. Wonderful. Thanks so much for thanks everyone for listening till next time. Cheerio Bye bye.