Hello and welcome to This Is Not What I Signed Up For, the podcast for new managers preventing you from sinking by teaching you how to swim. As always, I'm Ross, I'll be your host today and I'm very excited to have Vivian Lee joining me today. Welcome, Viv. Thank you. So everyone, Viv is the Director of Education and Strategy for ODLAN the open digital literacy and access network. Viv is an education management specialist and is skilled in integrating technology education, curriculum development, educational policy, and of great interest to us today, executive management. Viv is actively working through a doctorate in education policy on digital citizenship curriculum policy at the University of Toronto. and holds a master's of education focused in ESL education from Temple University in Japan. Did I get all of that right? Yeah, it makes me sound like a big nerd when you say it all in the same sentence. Well, you're in good company with me for that. Cool, so Viv, I start all of these podcasts off with one question to all the guests, and that is, what is the worst piece of management advice you've ever received in your career? Yeah, I was thinking about this earlier. m It wasn't so much advice, but sort of demonstrated recommendation from when I was a young manager, gosh, 10 to 12 years ago, I was sort of feeling out how to be a manager. My boss at the time would regularly hire similar people to himself, hire a lot of for lack of a better term, white men, straight white men. And there was a sort of a mental consensus. He wasn't hiring anybody that would disagree with him or have conflicting views or had all very similar backgrounds and skill sets. And he was kind of creating a little army of his own folks. vacuum echo chamber. Yeah, and I very quickly learned that that was not the right move. And how I recommend building out teams, especially for building out teams from scratch, is to find folks that complement your skill set. So if you've got a weakness in spreadsheets or weakness in contracts or weakness in know, a particular skill set or software, you want to hire folks that have not only the skill but like doing that work. You'll have a much better time. Yeah. someone who's miserable in a role because it's not what they want to do. everybody hates math, then you're not going to have a great time in the budget, right? So if you want to, it's important to find folks that are complementary to you in scale set and provide you with a wider breadth of perspective. Yeah, I think if you've got that like echo chamber as well, it implodes eventually. At some point, something's going to happen that implodes the whole thing. Seen that before many times too. Great. So today our topic is going to be something a little different. It's nonprofit leadership. uh So tell us a little bit about ODLAN. Yeah, so ODLAN was developed in 2021, in the peak of the pandemic, from our founder and executive director Stephanie Johnson. uh She saw a need for uh rainbow seniors, uh older adults who identify as 2S LGBTQIA +, and their extreme isolation from community during the A lot of them were stuck in living facilities and uh had minimal or no access to digital devices. And if they did have them, they had really low level digital literacy. And as a result, they weren't able to see people in person. They weren't able to see their family or their chosen family or their friends because of the nature of the pandemic. We all had our own little bubbles, if you recall. uh traumatize everyone and bring that back up. yeah, it uh was really isolating, especially for older adults and especially for folks of that generation who were part of the queer and trans communities. And as a result, wanted to fix that or help. And she brought in tablets and skills training and stuff for folks so they could stay connected and uh improve their quality of life. And then ODLAN... the Open Digital Literacy and Access Network very quickly uh exploded, to for lack of a better term, into an organization that provides digital literacy and cyber safety resources to all kinds of folks. But we are primarily prioritizing the two LGBTQIA + communities, especially the organizations that serve those communities. So a lot of those orgs are tiny, they're three to five staff, mostly volunteers. know, they're doing grassroots work on the ground and they don't have the capacity to bring in cybersecurity specialists or folks that can help reinforce their digital infrastructure. So that's what we do now. We provide a ton of resources. We've got a suite of free resources and educational materials. We have some scalable paid options and then we have a whole uh other branch of our network that does research. So we've got a growing collection of research prioritizing transphobic online hate and the community-based research elements that has been graciously funded through the federal government over last three to four years. So yeah, we've... found our niche, which is really cool. Steph brought me on last year as the Director of Education and Strategy. So I'm really happy to work with Steph and the team and we've got more coming up in 2025. Lots of additional resources. Happy to share those as links for your listeners later. Fantastic. Yeah, I I found out about about ODLAN from Stephanie a little while back as well. And the cybersecurity side is kind of where I got involved. And I really love the stuff that you're all doing and love the team. The team there is great as well. So for the listeners, if you want to find out more, there will be links in the show notes as well. uh If you want to head on over and take a look and I encourage you to do so. So Viv, uh when it comes to leading in a nonprofit organization, I think there's likely some unique challenges there that you wouldn't find necessarily in a corporate or a startup or something like that. So I'd like to talk to some of the challenges that a new manager might run into in that. And I think first thing that jumps to mind is, and in the space that you you're talking about where there's advocacy and things like that. How do you keep up to date with kind of political landscapes, legal landscapes? I political landscape is the last thing we want to mention right now. Just with what's going on. But how do you keep up? You're managing and you've got to keep up with this kind of stuff. What do you see in there? Well, it depends on the scale of your nonprofit. So I've worked. for the little tiny ones like ODLAN where we're a small team and we're relatively young. And I've worked for the really, really big ones where I've got a seven figure operating budget and I've got teams of 40, 50 people. I've seen both ends of the spectrum. I've been the director of education and team leading on e-learning programming at other organizations. The reality about the Canadian nonprofit sector is that we are very... beholden to the grant cycle. we don't know, a lot of people don't like to talk about this, but that is the truth. And so this time of year, which is, you know, early April is our reporting season. So every nonprofit across Canada right now is frantically filling out large scale reports to feed to their funders to ensure that we are meeting the funding expectations. And we're all frantically applying to new grants so that we can ensure the continuation of or work, that applies to small and large organizations. So if you've got an operating... I was going to say, can imagine that adds such an overhead at sort of like a regular cadence yearly then. Yeah, it is a non-usual uh working structure comparatively to for-profit or corporate companies, right? we have to spend a significant amount of time sourcing new revenue and typically that's public source. There is a certain percentage of your non-profit as a Canadian non-profit that is expected to come from granting sources, right, whether that be federal, provincial, municipal, or foundation, right. oh And it just becomes part of your life. Like you are always keeping an eye on grants, you're always keeping an eye on who's gotten what. uh And unfortunately, from a political perspective, there has been a shrinking of the pool. Right? So there's just as many fish, but there's a smaller pond. And as a result, there's a sense of resource scarcity. So we end up with more folks applying to the same grant than we typically, right? Because they're really nervous about the future of their opportunities. So they're applying even when they probably don't necessarily fit that mold. um And then when it comes to the political element, you're always keeping one eye on who's in charge and what their political initiatives and interests are and how that will affect. your uh operations as an organization. Yeah. Now, speaking of that and the changes and there could be uncertainty, but talking about that shrinking of the pond and things like that as well. You know, if you look at some of these companies that have been funded in the private sector and to start up that scaling, there's funding and suddenly their spend available, it's a very different approach. So if you are managing a team with these constraints of that pond shrinking, what would you say is something that managers should really pay attention to? Like what are some of the things they can do in these spaces where those ponds are shrinking or where it might not be a guarantee as to where funding and what funding is coming in? What kind of things should you keep in mind? Well, this year in particular is a good example of... what to do. The last time I saw this was in 2016 when the Ontario provincial government shifted from majority liberal to majority PC party, right? Conservatives and under, oh gosh, it wasn't 2016, maybe It was 2000, yeah, 18. Yeah, it was around there. But the... The reality was that the second that the government shifts direction, that is a tidal wave of impact across the nonprofit sector. um And so as a uh of a mid-manager or a senior leadership member, it's your job to keep track of those trends and recognize the patterns as they form. Luckily, and from a strategic perspective, we're creatures of habit and pattern. Humans do the same things over and over again. So when I'm looking at preparing for a potential Conservative government and what they would fund and support, I can just look back at the previous Conservative government. oh a sense of what is to be expected under that situation. If we're looking at a recurrence of the Liberal Party under Mark Carney, that for example, our current Prime Minister, uh we would be looking at a shift towards an even less left-leaning, more centric government. So if they are fiscally conservative, we need to make sure that our strategic implementation of matches or lines with that without pulling too far away from our core mission. uh I also always recommend diversifying your options as much as possible within reason. look at uh secondary or tertiary sources of funding. you're only pulling from government grants, look into corporate options. What corporate foundational grants are available? What could you get as far as a community sponsorship? Or if you can do, you know, direct client style fundraising where you're offering a service directly to the client in exchange. uh That's important to consider as well. It depends, of on uh what's going to keep your organization strong and sustainable so that you can keep your team. Because at the end of the day we're all just a bunch of humans and we're just trying to make sure everybody's fed and has rent paid for. ah That is a realistic situation. into the next thing I wanted to ask you. that like, thinking specifically of the team there, and you have a wonderful team there. uh What kind of things do you do to retain good people? What's the secret sauce for this? as things grow, retaining that culture and things like that, what are things you do there? Bye! I think that starting off our initial relationship, I've had about 300 employees of the last 10 years across jobs. My favorite employees have always been ones that make an effort to get to know their colleagues in every direction as human beings. folks that lead with their personhood are always going to find relationship and community in their workplace. And I'm not saying like, let's be a family because that's gross. We're talking about let's treat each other like people and not like commodities. Like let's de-capitalize our relationships in the workplace. And the very first thing that I like to do with new team members is just have a chat. it, you know, it cannot necessarily have to be about the onboarding process or training or anything like that. It can be, what do you like to do in your free time? like, what's your favorite style of art? like, you know, have you ever participated in some sports activity? I'm not a sports person, so forgive me. Do you like the sports? Yeah. Right? But just... making that human connection and establishing that baseline of relationship and communication is such a- it sounds so obvious when you say it out loud, but it is shockingly overlooked a lot. Yeah, I also love to ask my folks when they are onboarded uh what they like to do, what they hate to do, and what are they good at but not necessarily like. Right? So there are... Yeah. aligned there. think the last episode of the podcast I recorded about my hiring style and things like that, that was one of the things I was saying. What do you like doing? What don't you like doing? What floats your boat? well it's it's funny because as you grow in your profession you'll develop a series of skills and you've got this long list of things that you can do but I'm finding in my experience that there's a bunch of stuff that I'm good at doing but I don't actually like doing right like it doesn't bring me any serotonin to do these things but I for example I I can I'm really good at contract writing I I hate it I don't want to do it, but I'm really good at it and that's annoying. everybody comes into their new position with the list of things that they like doing, dislike doing, and are kind of halfway between and you can usually negotiate. those elements with them and decide, okay, to what extent can I ask this of you, right? And make sure that they don't feel bogged down with the weight of stuff that doesn't bring them, you know, professional joy. Yeah. And I think that that comes back to what you were saying right in the beginning about kind of the echo chamber and the everyone being the same skill set and things like that. It makes it difficult to spread the load in that kind of space. But I mean, if you've got a diversified team, then it works well to be, okay, well, I hate project management. That's my thing. I cannot stand, I can do it. And I've got a qualification in project management. I can't stand doing it. uh But I would much rather have a team member who enjoys project management take over some of that role and I'm in the doing and getting things done. And it works well to have that diversity in the team. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, we're all just a bunch of people, you know, but I find that the longer you're in leadership, especially in large scale organizations, you forget to treat people like they become emails, you know, and, and so you need it takes, you know, especially you got large teams like one of my previous jobs, I had a team of oh plus 40, 50 people that were direct reports. So I spent about 30 % of my week just connecting with them individually in small groups. um It was a huge percentage of my responsibility was just maintaining that channel of communication, making sure they had everything they need, mean, making sure that, you know. if they were worried or stuck on something that I was able to get it quickly. it was that consistent communication that allowed them to trust me. And I wasn't just dropping in when I needed something, which is often what happens with bosses. I was asking how they were doing. And they may sort of be nervous and hesitant at first because they've been duped before. But the trick is to be consistent. Consistent and authentic. Yeah. Yeah. Who knew? Yeah. uh I uh think I could talk on this subject of culture for like the entire day, but cognizant of time and things like that, uh I wanna kind of bring us round again. And with someone moving into management, and we've spoken a lot about culture now, if someone is moving into management for the first time in a nonprofit, what would you say are the first three things you think they should focus on. So say you, as a senior management hired someone into management for the first time or promoted someone into management. What would you say they should focus on as like getting on the ground running? I mean, there's a lot. I've kind of mentioned a few things already, but I think starting off with knowing your people and then making sure that you know their skills and preferences and then establishing that consistent communication. All of those things will put you off on a really good foot right away. I also really make an effort to give and this is how I tell new managers, is to whatever kind of positive reinforcement you think you're giving to your team, triple it. Yes, we think that we're giving compliments, uh but unfortunately a lot of us are wired to not hear them. Well, it will have, you know, I'm sure you've seen like in the comment section on a social media post, right? You'll have like a sea of positives and then there's like one negative and then the person often will focus on that one negative thing and ignore the hundreds of wonderful things that are said. if you're making sure that you're rebalancing the scales of positive and making sure that you're complementing them when they're making an effort. um this, I'm sure you've heard about the like the Hell's Kitchen Gordon Ramsay nonsense where he was famously known for never giving compliments to his chefs. And he was as a manager was famously known to say like the second you start complimenting your team, you're going to see a decline in their output. And I think that's absolute nonsense. I find that if people are happy in their work, and they feel like they're genuinely appreciated, they will perform above and beyond um because they're proud of themselves and their team and they really genuinely care. um And that is going back to just being authentically human, right? Just making sure that people are seen and appreciated for what they do. Yeah, absolutely. Totally agree with you there. This has been a great conversation so far. Tell me, what is something you're working on at the moment and really excited about right now? Yeah, so I recently built out uh a program that we've called the Digital Safety training program, which is designed for small organizations and prioritizing those who serve the 2S LWTI plus communities, which allows us to provide a suite of resources as far as training and materials and assessments and policy material to help reinforce their digital infrastructure and to do, we do a uh deep dive, like a forensic level dive on their digital footprints uh from an individual and an organization level. And then we put in reinforcements to protect them against online hate and harassment, inappropriate messages and emails, and attacks against their website and cloud systems to make sure that they're up to code with regards to privacy and protection laws in Canada and provide them with the resources so that they can continue on that work independently. after our program. So this is a project that also lends more towards the sort of increase in right-wing extremism that we've seen over the last couple years. uh Organizations are really feeling the hate and harassment at a much higher level. And so this is designed to help provide that peace of mind and reinforce their systems so that they can continue to do the good work. uh And yeah, so it's available on our website. If folks want to check that out, it's odlan.ca. And it is something that I'm really proud of because I think that it can do some genuine good in the world. That's awesome. I love it. And this kind of thing is why I think we got in touch in the first place as well. And I love this approach. that's great. Where can folks reach you if they perhaps wanted to reach out to you and say hi you can reach for me on LinkedIn. uh If you use my name, Vivian Lee and ODLAN you'll be able to find me. I have one of those common names, so you probably should use ODLAN as an anchor point. Or you can just reach out to ODLAN directly, info at oadlin.ca, it'll come straight to me. uh If you have questions about what we do or how we can collaborate in the future, we're small and agile. can maneuver. through a lot of different spaces and I'm just, we're in a major growth stage right now. So if anybody has questions about what we do and how we can help our communities, us know. Wonderful. And like I said, folks, that'll be in the show notes as well, so you can pick up that information there. Thank you so much for joining us. This has been great. Thank you to our listeners. Again, wishing you all the best with your journey in management. Until the next time we speak, please keep swimming. Cheerio.