Ross Saunders (00:00)
Hello and welcome to This Is Not What I Signed Up For, the podcast for new managers teaching you how to swim so you don't sink with your new responsibilities. And today we are going to be talking change management, which I think is very important for the new manager because you're going to have to deal with a lot of change. ⁓ As much as you've got your change in your career, you're going to have to change things in the organization. it's vital to know about these things. And to talk about that, I have Michele de Kreek with me.

Michele De Kreek (00:17)
you

Ross Saunders (00:28)
And Michele specializes in holistic transformation programs. She's a director of Up-Time Consulting And her focus is on driving people first strategies, combining expertise in project change management strategy and leadership coaching to deliver impactful organizational outcomes with a strong commitment to innovation and excellence in change management. Now I've known Michele for many, many years now. Strangely enough, we were actually in high school together. ⁓

Michele De Kreek (00:55)
He

Ross Saunders (00:56)
and perhaps said one or two words to each other the whole time, but ran into each other many, many years later ⁓ in a business perspective, speaking about ⁓ SAP environments and that side of things. So I'm very excited to have you on board today, Michele. Welcome.

Michele De Kreek (01:14)
Thank you so much, Ross. Good to be here.

Ross Saunders (01:17)
Great. You're all bundled up and warm and I'm all t-shirt and cool. We're having this call between South Africa and Toronto in Canada. So a little bit different. So maybe the term icebreaker comes out a bit better there. So Michele, I'll ask the same question of all my guests. ⁓ What is the worst piece of management advice you've ever received?

Michele De Kreek (01:44)
good question, Ross. The worst piece of management advice I've ever received or perhaps heard is do it because I told you to. ⁓ Yeah, I think no one buys into that, right? Because there isn't a clear why. And I guess when we look at change management, it's number one on the list. Why should I change? So for me, no one ever really responds really well to just because I told you to. Yeah.

Ross Saunders (02:12)
Yeah, ooh, the what's

not the why.

Michele De Kreek (02:15)
Mm-hmm, exactly.

Ross Saunders (02:17)
⁓ well, that's a great lead in to your career and what we're going to be talking to today. So change management for new managers. Now, I touch on the topic in my book. I've got ⁓ in my upcoming release now, I've got a chapter on this. But, you know, a chapter is one thing. This is an entire ⁓ industry profession and

there are books solely on it. So there's a lot to know in this space. So if you had to talk change management for a new manager, what exactly is change management from your side as someone who's a specialist in the field?

Michele De Kreek (03:04)
Yeah, thanks Ross. I think change management is really around moving people from an as-is to a to-be state, whatever that desired state is. And sometimes we find that state is really sitting in the tech space, so i.e. a SAP world, like you mentioned before. Or other times it's behavioral change that we want to see, cultural change. So we look at really the holistic part of change when we talk to leaders and how they're going to lead through that change irrelevant of the type of change.

And there's kind of science and art to it on how we deal with that as leaders. But what we really give them is tools and enablement on how to lead through change.

Ross Saunders (03:43)
Now speaking perhaps to your intro that you gave or your bad piece of advice, I'm going to hit you with a why now. ⁓ Why is change management so important as opposed to I'm the manager, this is what I say, ⁓ make sure it's done this way. Why does change management come in as so important?

Michele De Kreek (03:51)
Thank

So Ross, I think the stats at the moment is something like 70 % of ERP implementations fail due to lack of adoption. So really when we look at change management, what we're looking at is people behavior. And if people don't change or go along the journey with you, what is that going to cost your organization? And so it's not about how much is change management going to cost in terms of investing in it as a practice, but rather how much is it going to cost you if you don't make use of it as a practice?

Ross Saunders (04:24)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (04:34)
I think that's the bigger question.

Ross Saunders (04:36)
Hmm. And I've seen it so many times with new rollouts, things like that. I've worked in teams that were kind of a startup within a startup and we've got to roll out tools and implementations and things like that. I've, I have failed many times early in my career rolling things out. It's like, Hey guys, we're using this now and here's the procedure go. and it never really worked so well.

Michele De Kreek (04:46)
Hmm.

But

that's, you know, it's actually way more popular than you think, Ross. You're not alone. I've seen many.

Ross Saunders (05:07)
no, I don't. I work in the cybersecurity space a lot as well. And it's just kind of

like, here's the change, deal with it. There's the policy that says why we have to do it. And it's not even really a why, it's a, this is what we put in because SOC 2 says so, or ISO says so.

Michele De Kreek (05:18)
Mm. And I think...

Right, right. And those are some of the challenges we face as leaders. And then kind of a few months down the line, you wonder why nobody's really doing what you said we have to do because we have to do it.

Ross Saunders (05:36)
Yeah.

Yeah. And people find their little shortcuts and, that's not the greatest way of doing it. And you just spiral away. Um, so I think, you know, on the surface and talking about this, it really does. Um, I think that trap that we're talking about here is very much change management being almost like a checkbox exercise. Like, oh yeah, we've done the change. The change is in giving my KPIs and I'm good. Um, but it's really not that.

Michele De Kreek (05:39)
and

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Ross Saunders (06:05)
checkbox item, like what you're talking about, that cultural change is kind of an ongoing thing and your bio speaks about transformation. So, you know, if we had to look at something for a new manager or in a team or something rolling something out, how does change fit into that team and then into the broader organization as you go forward?

Michele De Kreek (06:13)
Hmm.

Yeah, so I think Ross, really for me, no matter what change you're doing, you actually don't realize the fact that you're changing human behavior. Whether that's now you're implementing an Oracle system and they need to change the way they're doing their procurement functioning, or whether you're doing a new office move. mean, post-COVID, we saw a lot of that, right? COVID in itself was a massive change for organizations and employees and how they engaged in the workforce. So I think what's really critical to understand is that we're changing human behavior.

Ross Saunders (06:47)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (06:59)
We're not changing a system. We're not changing a place where people work. And when we look at human behavior, it's really driven by a couple of things, but primarily it's driven about what they think, right? How do they feel? What is their perception? And that perception is really driven from a leadership narrative, a story that people are saying in the office. You know, I mean, the cooler conversations, the smoking corner conversations, those conversations are forming a perception.

Ross Saunders (07:24)
Hahaha.

Michele De Kreek (07:29)
of not only the leader, but the organization. And how do we start to influence that perception as a leader? Because that's ultimately our job. And if we can change that perception, you'll see the behavior change by default. They won't do it because you told them to. They'll do it because they believe in what you've brought into it and where the organization's moving. And they'll resonate on some level with a why. Because the story's different, the narrative's different.

Ross Saunders (07:37)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (07:55)
So I think that's really important to understand is that it's human behavior you're changing, not a system or a thing.

Ross Saunders (07:55)
Yeah.

I think you've touched on something there that makes me think back as well. ⁓ And it's something I talk about and taking a little detour here is knowing the pulse of what people are thinking. You spoke about the smoking conversations and the water cooler conversations. ⁓ I think as a new manager and correct me if I'm wrong and change management here.

Like you really should be part of those conversations as well. mean, it's very tempting as a new manager to be like, okay, well now I'm in this position of power. That's my little ivory tower. I'm going to go sit in it and I'll control the, the organization or my space from where I sit and all of that. And I don't think that works very well because you can alienate yourself very much. And you speak about those, that smoking conversations. remember, ⁓ many years ago, like, so for one,

Michele De Kreek (08:44)
you

Ross Saunders (08:55)
younger me was very much part of those smoking conversations and I was a pack a day smoker in those spaces. But even after I quit smoking, I used to stay with the folks and have my coffee with the smokers because I would actually get what is happening ⁓ in the broader team from it. And it was very valuable little exercise.

Michele De Kreek (08:57)
I'm

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean Ross, you laugh or we joke about it, but do know how many times I've been a pretend smoker on a new client site just to go and stand with the smokers because there's so much narrative being spoken about there. That's where people vent. That's where people really express themselves, not in the boardroom. So that's the stuff you need to gather. And we talk about this concept of, know, often when we do SWOT analysis and things like that or any of those kind of tools.

Ross Saunders (09:36)
yeah, for sure.

Michele De Kreek (09:47)
one of the things that leaders will be most proud of is their resilience, right? They're really resilient as leaders and teams. You know, what are you proud of as a team? I'm really resilient. We've gone through so much together. But the thing about resilience is it has an end date. Like you can only be resilient for so long and then you start getting feeling a bit weary and hammered down a bit. And so when you come in as a new leader, if you sit, as you said, in your ivory tower, then watch

Ross Saunders (10:09)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (10:16)
but you're a resilient leader, the thing is you can only be that resilient for so long. And so one of the concepts we talk about is moving from resilience to receptivity. And how do you get your feelers out there in the organization to start really hearing what it says? You know, we've got five senses. We don't just have what our voice says. So how are we using all those senses to pick up in the information? Because the organization is actually giving it to us.

Ross Saunders (10:27)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (10:46)
but we're not listening. And so if we can move into more receptive leadership, like you said, go and stand at the coffee cooler, go and stand in the coffee station, go and stand at the water cooler, go and stand at the smoking section, because that's where the real stories are being told.

Ross Saunders (10:46)
Mm.

Yeah, you'll get the pulse very quickly. So with this and a lot of what we've said here, ⁓ as a new manager coming in then, say you have some change that you need to deal with, ⁓ how does someone as a new manager start with change management? I mean, it's a very broad term. It's something.

Michele De Kreek (11:06)
Exactly.

Ross Saunders (11:27)
they've heard, I'm sure, probably been, they've probably experienced in some way, or form as kind of the recipient of it. But what are some of the key things a new manager can do to start and to facilitate changes within their space?

Michele De Kreek (11:45)
Yeah, so I think the first thing is really around so when we talk change management There's two prongs that I like to deal with the one is leadership alignment and the others an engaged employee workforce So in order to get engaged employees, we have to have leadership alignment So if you're a new manager starting in an organization being tasked to execute on a change Number one are you and your peers at that leadership layer? Align in terms of what this changes and why we trying to achieve it from an organizational perspective

Once that's clear, how do you walk the walk, talk the talk as a leader? You know, very often leaders are like, yes, I'm the sponsor of this change, but don't get me involved in any of the detail. I don't want to know. guess what? People are listening. The corridors are talking, you know. So I think it's like, what are the ways that can enable you to start to mobilize that workforce? What platforms do you have in place? How frequently do you meet with the team?

Can you articulate to why and solicit my end during those natural stand up meetings? Can you address any of the concerns that your employees have? What are their fears? What is their resistance? I mean, we speak about resistance as if it's this big scary thing. In my view, resistance is totally natural and it means that there's still energy in the system, right? So all we've got to do is change that energy into the positive. if

Ross Saunders (13:04)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (13:12)
mean, take for example, anyone who's listening to this podcast, if you have a fight with your wife or your partner and they go mute, well, yes, there's resistance, but there's also no fight left, right? So resistance is a really good thing. It means there's still energy. So it's about shifting that momentum. So be open and honest, be transparent. Let's deal with these resistances. Let's deal with these concerns. Let's deal with the fear because

Ross Saunders (13:23)
You

Yeah.

Michele De Kreek (13:42)
I don't believe that anyone wakes up in the morning goes, when Ross gives us this initiative, I'm going to resist. Like, that's not the thing. There's a reason why they're resisting. So get to the bottom of it as quickly as possible. Have those courageous conversations. Be uncomfortable. It's okay. ⁓ The other thing I think that's really landed well for us is leaders demonstrating a level of vulnerability.

Ross Saunders (13:48)
Ha

Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (14:09)
I don't know all the answers right now, but I'll get back to you. And that's okay too, but at least I'm communicating.

Ross Saunders (14:14)
yeah,

I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer. I swear by that. Rather do that than try and make something up and it backfires on you later. And yeah.

Michele De Kreek (14:20)
Right, right.

Because

it's the psychological contract around safety, So if we don't have trust and respect, then how can we have hope of tomorrow? And if you lose their trust as a new leader, gosh, it takes forever to rebuild that. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Ross Saunders (14:31)
Mmm.

yeah, if you can, in some cases.

You know, I think, like, just bringing what you've said there, I think that communications on both sides is so important. ⁓ And that groundwork of the leadership buy-in kind of thing and making sure everyone's aligned on that. I remember seeing a initiative fail so hard and we did

Michele De Kreek (15:00)
Hmm.

Ross Saunders (15:07)
all the right things in terms of the checkbox of what change management should be. Where we were rolling out new systems. It was going to be a little bit more effort, but it was for security and we did the why and it was great. we got all the teams were bought in. were like, this is amazing. And the CEO decided he didn't want to follow the change and he opted out of it basically.

Michele De Kreek (15:13)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ross Saunders (15:38)
and the cascade effect of that, I remember one of the project managers coming up to me and saying, well, Bob's not doing this. So I don't feel the need to do it either. And the change fell apart spectacularly. Like we'd spent months getting it up and all it needed was the CEO to opt out of one of the changes. And it just went out the window. that

Michele De Kreek (15:51)
Hmm.

Ross Saunders (16:03)
Constant communication is such a valuable thing and needing to meet with both sides, managing up and managing down.

Michele De Kreek (16:10)
100%. Yeah. And I think the example you just gave around the CEO, like their level of influence is critical in terms of how the rest of the organization responds. And walk the walk, talk the talk. Don't just pretend to sign off a budget for change management tech box, you know. And I think change also is very, it's almost being seen as a

Ross Saunders (16:23)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Michele De Kreek (16:37)
A framework, a methodology, when we look at partnering with project managers as an example, we go, okay, when the project's initiated, we need to do this from a change management point of view. And when we're in design, we need to do this from a change management point of view. But the reality is change is a lot more practical. And there needs to be like on the ground tangible deliverables that people can see, touch, feel throughout the change process so that they're engaged.

not just, okay, we need to achieve a milestone in order to go through to the next stage gate for this implementation.

Ross Saunders (17:03)
Hmm.

⁓ that's a very good insight. I'm feeling like, huh, I need to change the way I did my change management a little bit there.

Michele De Kreek (17:12)
Yeah.

Ross Saunders (17:21)
Cool. So Michele, we've spoken about like change management in you and your team and things like that. And a lot of the point is around there, but you know, when does it get to the point where ⁓ you as a new manager can realize that, this is a bigger change management task than we thought, or we need to get someone in to help us with this. Is there a trigger for that kind of size and scale of change management?

Michele De Kreek (17:50)
Yeah, so Ross, I'm smiling because I was actually on one of those calls just before this one. And I think the thing is, know, major mergers acquisitions as an example, when you've got two organizations that are merging into one, when there's one cultural way forward, that's a major trigger for me for change management to be involved because the likelihood that a person who's not skilled or trained in this discipline can

⁓ orchestrate the change as effectively is really difficult specifically because they're normally doing this on top of their day job and they're experiencing the change themselves.

Ross Saunders (18:30)
Hmm.

Yeah,

that could be a setup for failure by the sounds, but just thinking of that.

Michele De Kreek (18:36)
Yeah, the other is a major systems change. So when we look at business tools like SAP, ERP, Oracle, those sorts of things, when you've got lots of users that are going to go through different changes. So we've got someone sitting in the finance accounts payable department, we've got someone else sitting in HR, we've got someone else, you know, and then we've still got the tech guys, right, that have to support this all and have to be up skilled in terms of the support calls and things like that. So that

for me typically would suggest ⁓ a seasoned change manager needs to be involved. And obviously any cultural change that the organization is going through. There are smaller scale projects where change should be involved, but I think change should start being seen as a strategic enabler other than an ops deliverer. I think that's the mind shift.

Ross Saunders (19:10)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (19:33)
And perhaps because change management, I believe, is still needing to mature as a career, we're not yet being seen as the strategic enabler. We're still seeing as, okay, you come in for a project, you start the project, you're in the project. and guess what? You only get put on the project eight weeks before we go live. You know, I mean, and then you've got like three months support after go live if you're lucky. Well, guess what, guys? The change for your end user in that scenario,

Only starts the day you say we're live. Until then it's just theoretical, right? So, you you wonder why we're going back to old Excel spreadsheets after paying for licenses on Oracle, but we haven't landed change. We haven't provisioned for it.

Ross Saunders (20:06)
Hmm.

You

Yeah, that's very true. think you're echoing what was said in an episode a couple of weeks ago on OKRs and KPIs and sort of being that more strategic route and long-term and things like that. And I think that that's very important. I think there is a long-term role to play in change because it does tie into everything, ties into your culture and the way the organization operates in so many ways and keeps operating going forward.

Michele De Kreek (20:45)
Mm.

Ross Saunders (20:50)
to hit those next milestones and what the organization wants to do strategically.

Michele De Kreek (20:55)
And I think even more so at the moment, Ross, because we're seeing change. You know, I think the saying goes something like change is inevitable. I can't even remember the saying, but the point is that we're seeing change happen so much more rapidly in today's world. It's not like we take 18 months to do an implementation anymore. And that's just the software.

Now we're looking at ways of work, people returning to work. We're looking at AI and the introduction of that. If you look across an organization as an example, my team could be looking after 47 initiatives sitting in a central change management office supporting these 47 initiatives. It's the same organization, but they all need help from a change management point of view. And you know, your FD is implementing an

Ross Saunders (21:21)
Mmm.

Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (21:50)
an Oracle implementation. And she's also the same person who's being impacted by the performance management tool that's being introduced. And she's also the same person who's being impacted by the new leadership training that HR is wanting them to do. So one single stakeholder could be impacted by seven or eight of those change initiatives at the same time.

Ross Saunders (22:15)
just hearing overwhelm right there.

Michele De Kreek (22:18)
Right? So change management, ⁓ it's really not a project start and end date, although it can be associated to. The real change happens when we sit at the transformation layer. And that's where we equip leaders to lead through change so that they have the tools to use when they execute change management. But there's this strategic alignment, the strategic vision.

Ross Saunders (22:31)
Hmm.

Michele De Kreek (22:44)
as well as them being able to have some courageous conversation.

Ross Saunders (22:44)
Hmm.

⁓ great. Getting everyone and swimming in the same direction. ⁓ Michele, thank you so much for this. We're coming up on time. As we're wrapping up, what are some of the things you're up to at the moment? How can folks reach you if they want to find out more?

Michele De Kreek (22:52)
Yeah.

Thanks, Ross. What are we up to at the moment? We're doing a lot of system implementations. We're doing a lot of culture transformations. ⁓ And we're doing actually a lot of ⁓ target operating model changes for organizations at the moment to ensure efficiencies. And yeah, if you want to reach me, it's Michele de Kreek, M-I-C-H-E-L-E at up-time.co.za. So Michele @ up-time.co.za.

or can obviously check out our website up-time.co.za.

Ross Saunders (23:42)
Wonderful. And all of that will be in the show notes as well if you want to read up on that. Michele, thanks so much for joining us today. This has been great. I think this has changed some of my thoughts on how I will do some change management going forward. So thank you very much. And thank you to our listeners. Till next time, keep swimming.

Michele De Kreek (23:54)
Yeah

Thank you, Ross.