Ross Saunders (00:00)
Hello and welcome to This Is Not What I Signed Up For, the podcast for the new manager teaching you how to swim so you don't sink with your new responsibilities. Now I'm very excited to bring our guest on today in Dan Snow. Dan was introduced to me by my last guest, Sarah. And I think the chat we had in the initial meeting that we had could have been an episode on its own. I think we went through a whole bunch of different topics there, but he's done some pretty

Dan Snow (00:24)
this is. ⁓

Ross Saunders (00:29)
wild and cool stuff from a 20 foot foosball table, which sounds quite interesting. I'd like to know a little bit about that. then motion sensitive mini boards for Five Alive Tell me a little bit about those.

Dan Snow (00:42)
⁓ Five Alive Ross, mean, everyone's childhood favorite. ⁓ Five Alive was doing a campaign where we were launching ringtones. Remember when you would download a ringtone on your cell phone, your Nokia brick. So we had custom ringtones. We had motion boards that would talk to you in the bathrooms, in the men's washroom, there were motion sensitive mini boards. And there were actually like your heat sensitive urinal stickers that you could.

Ross Saunders (00:54)
Yeah.

Ha ha ha.

Dan Snow (01:09)
you could use in a urinal. So it was definitely a pinnacle of my creative career in advertising for sure. ⁓

Ross Saunders (01:15)
Ha ha.

I love it.

Cool. So Dan, on the management side, ⁓ you've built or restructured a $3 million agency and built a whole bunch of teams and strategy and things from scratch. So I'm very happy to have you on because I think you kind of got an inkling of what you're talking about around the management side. And you now run a full service agency and you help business to business companies grow and tell their story.

Dan Snow (01:40)
Thank you.

Ross Saunders (01:46)
And one of the things you do is you folks do this remotely, which happens to be our topic today. So Dan, welcome to the podcast.

Dan Snow (01:56)
Thank you, Ross. Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm excited to be here.

Ross Saunders (02:00)
Yeah, so first question for you and going on the remote side of things. What is your personal remote work guilty pleasure during the day?

Dan Snow (02:11)
⁓ so I, as much as I love living in Zoom and looking at my laptop for a large portion of my day, my guilty pleasure with remote work is ⁓ going out and like going for walks as wild as that sounds. ⁓ Sometimes on a Tuesday afternoon at like 2.30 when you're in between meetings, it feels like you should be sitting at your desk being a diligent worker bee. ⁓

But there are definitely moments where, you I live next to a conservation area when I'm here in like Waterloo, Canada, where I live. And then I work remotely from different locations around the world for different parts of the year, mostly winter, Canadian winter, I get out of here. So I really try to intersperse going out into the world and having an adventure and just stimulating my mind in a more relaxed and different way in between the meetings and the tasks and the...

obligations that we all have throughout our days.

Ross Saunders (03:12)
I would actually say that that is very similar for me. I also love the ducking out for a walk when it really does feel like a little guilty pleasure. Even though I don't think it should be. ⁓

Dan Snow (03:15)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Well, and I'll share about the guilty pleasure

piece. Like what I realized is I used to feel guilty about it. Like there's a point in time where I was like, I shouldn't be doing this. I should be sitting and doing the things that I'm supposed to be doing like a responsible grownup. ⁓ and then what I realized is, is I'd be out on that Tuesday afternoon and I'd be walking in the woods and I'd be like, you know, watching a squirrel run up a tree. And then all of a sudden this solution to this like chatless work challenge that I had rolling around in my

of sudden, like, I'm not thinking about it. And then the light bulb goes off and you're like, if I just move this person over here and reallocate that, you know, move that to the right and that to the left, like that solves the problem. And so I real, so I've shown myself that I don't need to feel guilty about it. And taking that time is actually like productive in a different way. So yeah, it's, been an interesting exercise.

Ross Saunders (04:14)
Hmm.

Do find it like a little bit of a meditation? that's kind of what I had. Like it's that break to think. ⁓ and like I take our pup out and we go for a walk and throw the ball and then often, yeah, I agree. Ideas will come to me.

Dan Snow (04:21)
No.

Yeah, very much so.

Yeah.

Yes, absolutely. It's creating space, right? Yeah.

Ross Saunders (04:35)
Yeah, yeah, very

important. Like I come from a consulting background and I know exactly what it's like for billable hours and you've got to keep going and keep going. sometimes it's a hindrance because you can't come up with the right solution. But that's a topic for a whole other podcast episode sometimes. Cool. So like diving into the remote work side of things and we discussed it a little bit previously. You know, I've had the benefit

Dan Snow (04:43)
I see a face like that.

Yeah.

Yes, true.

Ross Saunders (05:05)
that I've been working remotely since probably 2013 or so. know, transition to working remotely, I battle to remember what my transition to remote work was, but I think a big shift in remote work, well, I think, I mean, it's visible. The big shift came, I think, during COVID for folks working remotely and that. ⁓ in your experience with...

remote work side that you guys are doing, how has the landscape changed sort of prior to COVID to what we're at now post-COVID?

Dan Snow (05:44)
Yeah, in my experience. for context, I started my career in advertising and in mobile app development. And so I worked at big, big ad agencies and small ad agencies. worked at a mobile, like a mobile app development agency for a period of time, ⁓ before I started my own company. And now what we do is we're a marketing company for businesses that sell to other businesses, usually with sales teams. So think like construction.

⁓ manufacturing, like janitorial services, ⁓ infrastructure, technology. So ⁓ very grassroots kind of infrastructure organizations are who we work with. And so when I was in AdLand, as I call it, the only instance I saw of remote work was when I worked at this mobile app development company, specifically in pharmaceuticals.

because the pharmaceutical organizations were so global and so funded that they could afford the technology and the travel in order for us to be based in Toronto and our clients to be based in Basel, Switzerland and Orange, New Jersey and Los Angeles, like outside of LA and California. So that was my first remote work experience pre-COVID. And that was the only instance in which I saw it kind of exist to.

to really like a hundred percent capacity where we never saw our methiclient. We always worked remotely in time zones and all of that stuff. And then COVID happened. And of course the in-person wasn't sustainable. We saw the technology adoption happen even in really laggard industries like insurance and finance, like these institutions, right? And they had to get on board. And so it just of course accelerated the adoption and then

Ross Saunders (07:12)
Mm.

Dan Snow (07:35)
it's a lifestyle piece. are like, oh, I don't want to go back to work. Like, I don't need to tell y'all listening that, you know, the office isn't always our favorite place to be. So the acceptance of it came after the technology was really an obligation. And now we live in the world we do today, where I'm literally on, like today I'm on five and a half hours of calls. Like, I don't you leaving my house, no dinner.

Ross Saunders (07:52)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Dan Snow (08:04)
So it's been a quick shift.

Ross Saunders (08:10)
Yeah. And I think that I want to get onto that tech part a little later. Cause I think that's been a thing that I had a surprise the other day when I got invited on a call and I don't want to say the wrong name, but I think it might've been either Webex or GoToMeeting. And it was something that I haven't heard of in a long time for a meeting. was like, wow, you're still around. Not to, not to slate them or anything, like

Dan Snow (08:30)
Yes? Awesome.

We'll jump on a day two

meeting, we'll watch them say by the bell, it'll be great. ⁓

Ross Saunders (08:46)
So going into kind of the context that you're in now and you've got your remote teams, what is your approach to managing remote teams? How do you do it?

Dan Snow (08:59)
⁓ it is about, for me, it's about structure in order to create consistent communication channels because. Communication channels not only of course allow for like awesome work to be done and all of that very important stuff, but it also enables people to connect with one another and build relationships when you're not physically together. And so I have, I'm going to call it like two streams of structured meetings. If you will, the first one are for our business. have status every Monday. We have.

monthly touch bases we have, know, the things you need to run a business. So we have those meetings very structured so that we see each other often, we're communicating regularly about our projects. The second stream of communication we have are meetings so that people can get peer to peer support. So the way that The Snow Collective, my company works, is we are a group of freelancers, small business owners, consultants who come together under The Snow Collective brand.

And we cherry pick everyone's expertise. So, you know, if client A needs one person with this skill set, we can make that happen. If client B needs nine people with nine different skill sets, we can make that happen. And so with that said, we all work individually. Sometimes these are new relationships. Sometimes these are preexisting within the team. And so we create peer to peer groups so they can talk about their businesses and their challenges. And we do

personal and professional check-ins and who needs help. ⁓ So I create monthly spaces where we're not talking about the Snow Collective work, we're talking about you and what's going on with you and how you are and do check-ins and ⁓ build relationships really and build trust and even just like the practice of communication and building it as a habit.

Ross Saunders (10:27)
Hmm.

Yeah, I think that that one-on-one kind of peer support is exceptional and so needed. the, the last, ⁓ consultancy that I was in where I had people reporting into me, ⁓ we were completely remote as well. And, you know, we had those business meetings that it's the general running, but the one-on-ones, ⁓ and just the, are you as a person?

Dan Snow (11:18)
Yes.

Ross Saunders (11:18)
went such a long way into building relationships, that the actual getting stuff done happened from that because there's support and things like that. There's a whole cascade effect of ⁓ things that happen when you open that communication channel. So I absolutely agree with you on that.

Dan Snow (11:34)
Yes.

Yeah, and as we discussed this, the other thing that comes to mind is the other element of not being in an office is when you're spending that time together, you're not talking about like the office politics or like the, you know, that when you're in that environment, that takes up a lot of capacity around like within conversation. Whereas when you're dealing with folks like this, we're both in our homes right now. So you experience what's happening in your colleagues' homes. You see cats and animals and people and deliveries and...

Ross Saunders (12:01)
Mm.

Dan Snow (12:06)
You know what I mean? In the rain, through the window. And so like, also when you have conversation with them, you're also connecting with them about personal things within their lives. So in a way, I feel that it kind of almost fast tracks getting to know someone if you're willing to ask those questions and they're willing to share because they're in an environment that's like conducive to getting to know them. They're in their own space.

Ross Saunders (12:28)
Yeah. mean, for those listening and not watching on YouTube behind me is my little geeky shrine that I have, which has become such a conversation starter in different meetings. it's almost like I can vet a client straight away when the client's like, is that Battlestar Galactica? It's like, I like you. So all my little trinkets and yeah, if you're a Trekkie, a Battlestar fan, Kevin Smith.

Dan Snow (12:38)
Thank you.

We're getting along just fine.

Ross Saunders (12:57)
We're getting along very well there. ⁓

Dan Snow (12:59)
I love that. No,

I always get the teal wall. I have a teal accent wall behind me and people have as soon as they get on, they're like, that color is amazing. I'm like, okay, here we go. Like it's just a nice icebreaker too, right? When you chat for the first time.

Ross Saunders (13:04)
you

Yeah.

But I mean, this kind of leads into the next thing I wanted to ask you. And we're already hitting on the differences in kind of managing a remote team from managing an in-person team and the way things change between in office and things like that. ⁓ When it comes to that, those differences between in-person and ⁓ online, how do the sort of

Dan Snow (13:25)
Mm-hmm.

Ross Saunders (13:40)
I'm wondering how to word this. How did the sensitivities in dealing with someone change? Because I think you don't get that physical contact. In some cases, you might not have video contact. So there's none of the nuances for body language and things like that. So what do you see might be the different sensitivities there from being in person and remote? If that question makes sense.

Dan Snow (13:44)
Hmm.

Yes, that's a really good

and interesting question. And I kind of compare moments I've had in my career and experience where I've had to have, a difficult conversation in person and I've had to have it digitally. And I find the benefit of doing it virtually is that you aren't

there to physically absorb the energy that that person is putting out. Like, I don't know about like, I'm a very like empathic person. Like I pick up what other people are laying down and I just work all of it. And I think about moments where I've had in-person conversations and that person is having like an emotional response. And I can like feel it in my body. Like I can, you know what I mean? I'm taking it on. And that's just the nature of human connection. And that's what happens when you're in a space and you know, and it's the same thing with celebrations. You get the vibe.

Ross Saunders (14:35)
Mm.

Dan Snow (14:55)
it's positive. So I think with difficult conversations in ways, it's easier because you're not so physiologically responsive in the environment to have. So it just keeps you cooler. There's less emotional management required to just take less on. So with that said, on the flip side, that comes with emotional disconnect. So perhaps the person receiving the message you're engaging with is not, you know, connecting or being or being met where they need to

Ross Saunders (15:07)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Dan Snow (15:23)
or they want to be met, whether that's proper, improper, correct or not, whatever, right? Subjective. So I think that's the trade-off where it's easier to have a difficult conversation because it's very much encapsulated. You hit go, you hit stop. There's no, now we're gonna see each other in the office for the next three hours. Like now everyone's gonna watch them get walked out. Like there's none of the circumstance around it. So, know, it...

Ross Saunders (15:41)
Hmm.

Dan Snow (15:52)
it can make things more transactional as we perhaps see the general vibe of humanity going. I think this enables that a little. ⁓

Ross Saunders (15:55)
Hmm.

Ha ha.

Yeah. you know, just listening to that and thinking through it as well, think it ties back again to that communication with your team and it's like those one-on-ones and things like that. I find it both easier and more difficult to have the difficult conversations with folks when I have a better relationship with them. Sometimes because we have the rapport where I can be honest about your performance was not what we were looking for with this or

Dan Snow (16:24)
Mm-hmm. Yeah

Ross Saunders (16:33)
What's up? Why is this changing or something like that? And the rapport lets that happen. ⁓ But it makes it more difficult sometimes in that you really get to know someone you don't want to take them on like that. But yeah, food for thought. I think the communication ties into that quite a lot. From that, what you were mentioning, like, you know, the walking someone out, ⁓ what would you say is harder remotely? Hiring, firing, motivating.

Dan Snow (16:47)
Of course.

I, for me, the what data tells me is that hiring digitally is most difficult because again, you don't have you don't get that like emotional connection. You don't get that vibe. Not to say that every person I hired in person was a great hire and I kept them on forever. And, ⁓ but I think it's harder to find the fit and to see the circumstance that they're in. Like, can they physically arrive somewhere on time?

Ross Saunders (17:15)
Hmm.

Dan Snow (17:32)
Like how do they present themselves? Like some of these nuanced elements are missing. And again, you don't have the prep and the commute and the time management and the arrival and the decorum around staff and reception. like, again, you miss the environmental context of a person, which I believe like is very indicative of who they are. And so that I find it makes it.

Ross Saunders (17:46)
Yeah.

I used to watch for that.

Dan Snow (17:57)
Yeah, like it's hard to hire, right? So it's harder to get to know someone in a multifaceted way. ⁓ and that gives you less visibility into who they are, which makes hiring more difficult in my, in my, I don't know. What do you think? What's your take on that?

Ross Saunders (18:04)
Mm.

I don't know. Maybe it's the. ⁓

empathy side, I would battle with the firing side, I think. ⁓ And ⁓ thankfully I haven't had to let anyone go over virtual except clients. That's a lot easier to tell a client to leave. But I think hiring, I don't know if it's because of the methodology I use, I actually found that what I'd learned in terms of hiring in the corporate space translated really well.

Dan Snow (18:24)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Ross Saunders (18:50)
to hiring in the virtual space. I do a long hire. I'm a very frustrating hiring manager because I do the four interviews and one of them is really long, but I use something called the top grading method, which is very involved. I kind of scale it back a bit because in true top grading, I think you need one eight hour interview or something. It's a bit ridiculous, ⁓ but it really gets you to know

Dan Snow (18:52)
Yeah, dude.

wow.

Ross Saunders (19:20)
someone on various levels from the kinds of questions you ask. yeah, that's, I actually did an episode on it a few months back, which goes into the whole methodology and all of that. ⁓ So yeah, I think.

Dan Snow (19:31)
Nice. Click in the description below

to link to that episode.

Ross Saunders (19:35)
Yeah, sure. I'll send it to you.

Yeah. So I think I'd be okay with hiring, but the firing side, don't think so. Motivating, I think, comes back to those conversations. If you're not having those conversations, people are not motivated or less likely.

Dan Snow (19:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, I hear you.

just, and again, I know it's not specific to remote, but I find hiring is also harder because you don't have the data. Whereas when I'm, if I'm ending a relationship with someone, it's based on a track record that gives me the knowledge that this is the right choice for the business. So I have like, at least I have a grounding somewhere or with hiring. Again, you have a whole methodology. So you're collecting data as you're like going through it. So I just need to tap into.

Ross Saunders (20:07)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Dan Snow (20:22)
to tap into your process. So again, another conversation.

Ross Saunders (20:25)
You

Yeah.

Cool. I mean, flipping this around a bit for a new manager. we've spoken about managing your team remotely. How does it work for you with managing clients remotely? Because I mean, that's also a function of things. You've got to manage your clients as well. How do you find that that works?

Dan Snow (20:47)
Yes.

Yeah, what the benefit of being remote from the onset, like I have clients that are local to me and I can be in their office and sometimes I am. And you know, and these are the other thing about my clients is I generally work with people that I like and enjoy and want to spend time with. So when I have the opportunity, it's nice to see them. ⁓ and so when it comes to the client expectation, we are fully remote already. So they're not, ⁓

phased about kind what the background is behind us. The only piece that really comes into play is time zones. And so for me, I mean, I proactively manage my clients expectations where, hey, I'm going to be less, I'm going to be working from Europe for three months. I'm not going to be as available in the afternoons. My team is, excuse me, you still have access to all of the support staff. And if something is on fire, you have my phone number, but ultimately like,

Ross Saunders (21:26)
Hmm.

Dan Snow (21:47)
I'm just generally not going be available for meetings unless there's, I like, I need to be. ⁓ and I use tools like Calendly, ⁓ which is an automated booking software where you set your own availability and then people go in and it matches their availability. And you can just toss it in and it mitigates the time zone difference. I see it in, you know, in European, they see it in, our instance Eastern. So.

It's these tools where you can set your availability that allow you to be within time zones. it doesn't, ⁓ it doesn't really hinder your ability to communicate.

Ross Saunders (22:25)
Yeah,

Calendly is possibly one of the most valuable tools that I've got. ⁓ It's just like one year subscription, yes, paid, done, it to me. ⁓ It's so valuable. I I work across multiple time zones from Eastern through Pacific, through South Africa, through Netherlands. ⁓ And it's so great to just like have a link in my signature and people just book in the time that works for them.

Dan Snow (22:33)
Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And I have this fabulous coach. name is Valerie Hall Little. I've been working with her for like six years now or something. And she's very much helped me with both operations and leadership mindset and enabled me to like get out of my head. That's the other thing for remote work. If you come from corporate, like get a coach that tells you like, if you want to go work from Bora Bora, like pack your laptop, figure out a plan and go make it happen. Like go live your best life. So that's the other asset I highly recommend as a coach. ⁓

Ross Saunders (22:54)
⁓ such a time save.

Yeah.

Dan Snow (23:22)
But all this to say, I thought when she introduced Calendly, was like, people are gonna think this is so informal and I'm like brushing them off to be like, go book your own meeting. I come from, we jam for nine emails until we get like a 30 minute meeting booked. So, and then people loved, yeah, the doodles, exactly, exactly haunting my dreams. So all this to say like, but people loved it. The feedback was fabulous. And then, you know, so.

Ross Saunders (23:31)
You

Yeah, a one week long doodle poll.

Dan Snow (23:50)
you implement things. The other one was Loom. So Loom allows you to screen record while you can video and audio or one of the three or whatever. So it allows you to review documents and take video at the same time. So think walk through a presentation, a scope of work, a sales pitch, even like meeting notes. So I use that and allows you to have async conversations that are conversations. They are an email.

And then it has AI tools that summarizes everything. So these are ways that the client doesn't like feel you're gone or feel you're in a different time zone. And so they're generally not usually they're like, where are you now? Like they're excited to like learn and live vicariously.

Ross Saunders (24:26)
Mm.

Yeah, it's fascinating. It's one of the things that blows my mind about the return to work sort of orders. I'll call them orders that are happening now. You know, I remember once, must have been 2016, 2017, again, when I was already working remotely. But I kind of one day thought to myself, like, how would someone

Dan Snow (24:47)
Yes.

Ross Saunders (25:05)
know if I'm sitting at home in Johannesburg or if I'm sitting in Mauritius in a cocktail bar as to what I'm doing. So we got on a plane, we flew to Mauritius and I only had a two hour difference and I sat there working from a cocktail bar near my hotel. And it was wonderful for a week and no one even knew I was not at my desk and it worked fine. this is what blows my mind with these return to work things is

Dan Snow (25:30)
Yes.

Ross Saunders (25:35)
I think it's this grapple for control where it shouldn't really even need to be. In my view, it's more detrimental ⁓ than keeping the remote work. That personal soapbox there.

Dan Snow (25:45)
Yes.

Yeah,

know, I hear you. what I can say is like, I know it works for me. And I know that there are people that want to be in the office three or four days a week, maybe five, maybe seven, some people. And they thrive in the environment and they need the structure. And again, we all come from different, we're early enough in full technological adoption still in humanity that generational evolution still impacts our

Ross Saunders (26:04)
Yeah, that is true, that is true.

Dan Snow (26:19)
the way we socialize and the way we work and the way our guilt and shame and fear mechanisms work. I should, like optics, right? I need to be seen, I need to be present. How do I feel a part of this company if these things, if these boxes aren't checked? So it's about creating a new culture where...

How do we find solutions for individuals so that those people who want and need and thrive in an in-person environment can have access to that, while the people who thrive remotely and are more productive, like, it's that they're going one extreme or the other. It's not about how do we reinvent the system so that we can get the most out of each person and create systems that enable them to engage with our business in the way that they choose.

That's my soapbox.

Ross Saunders (27:11)
⁓

I'm seeing that we're coming up on time here. I know we spoke about Calendly and that. Is there any one tool that you think is the best? And maybe it is Calendly, ⁓ but when it comes to remote work, what is your favorite?

Dan Snow (27:29)
Google Drive, Google and Google enterprise solutions where a Google like built having access to every file on every device. If my laptop spontaneously combusts, I can pick up my brothers and have full access to my server. ⁓ so remote work, a centralized cloud-based device, agnostic, ⁓ server is, is going to be your, your BFF.

Ross Saunders (27:31)
Okay.

Dan Snow (27:58)
as you cruise through the world.

Ross Saunders (28:02)
I'm a team person.

Dan Snow (28:05)
Well, it's been nice chatting with you, ⁓

That's all I'll say about Microsoft products, but yes. ⁓ Exactly, exactly. Again, that's another, that's our fourth podcast.

Ross Saunders (28:13)
you

No, two inches on. ⁓

⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dan, we're coming up on time here. ⁓ I wanted to find out if someone wanted to reach out to you, find out more about what you're doing, where can they find you?

Dan Snow (28:35)
the best place, go to our website, snowcollective.ca. You can reach out via email. You can learn all about our company and our beautiful, amazing team. ⁓ And if you want to connect with me personally, LinkedIn is your best bet, Dan Snow. And those are the two best points of contacts. Yeah, say hi.

Ross Saunders (28:53)
Fantastic. And those will be in the show notes for our listeners as well. So you can click on the link. Dan, thank you so much for coming on here. This has been great. I think there's going to be a lot of value out of this. yeah, thanks. It's been great having you on.

Dan Snow (29:09)
Thank you. No, this was a lot of fun Ross. Thanks for the invitation. I really appreciate that.

Ross Saunders (29:14)
Yeah, anytime. We'll definitely have to do this again. We've got a whole bunch of topics coming out of this. Cool. Well, to our listeners, thank you very, very much for being here. Until next time, keep swimming.